Mustang51

My Feedback: (25)

Alanc,

"UP YOURS" is STILL how we Americans feel today if some dirtball country thinks they're going to "F" with us or our allies and get away with it. I know GB feels the same way. You guys are ALWAYS THE FIRST to stand by our side.

American planes tough to model? You got B#@@s.
How bout that Harrier?

-M51

alanc

the harrier doesnt fly, it beats the ground into submission till it lets it go.

kahloq

That is absolute rubbish and you know it. The 109 made swiss cheese of a lot of british planes early in the war and was in the Battle of Britian and where did that take place huh? Over England. For the germans, thats offensive, for the english, a defensive engagement. It is true though that the 109 only had enough fuel for 20 minutes worth of combat flying OVER england. Still its offensive and that was WITHOUT the dropable fuel tank.
The reason the Spitfire came about was because of the 109(which came into intial service in prior to WWII). Do some real research, not biased guesswork. The spitfire was then subsequently updgraded through the different marks because of the advancement of the 109 and then ultimately the 190. Germany was ONLY on defense after 1943. Your forgetting 5 years of combat prior to that....since ..well..germany fought in the Spanish Civil war and also invaded Poland in 1939. Thats very offensive.

jrod1019

by the end of the war, only 1 country had planes that from land or sea could fly from hundreds of miles and take the war to that country, and establish air superiority over that country!- the usa!
p-51d, p-47d-30,40,p-47n, p-38j-25, p-38l, f4u1-d,f4u-4, and tha best bomber-b-29!

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

In 1939 the main competitors were Me109, Hurri. I, Spit I, P-36, P-40, & Zero. In fighter combat there are two types of advantage a maneuvering advantage, or a advantage that allows you to break off a bad position. Those advantages that allow the break off of combat in 1939 were owned by the Me109 and the Zero. The me109 was turbocharged and fuel injected which ment it could pushover (negative G’s) into a dive and the planes it would fight against could not keep up. The zero could vertically out climb all its adversaries. Speeds were about =.

1940-1941 a lot of planes came into use. The me109 lost its advantage to do (negative G) but picked up a stable mate that was much faster than their opponent in the FW190A which also possessed the fastest aileron response of all it adversaries. Kurt tank the designer also included a neat little box (for lack of a better word) that controlled mixture, and pitch automatically. while all others had to keep behind their opponent, and control the mixture and pitch the Focke wulf pilot just had to keep them in the sights. add to that, guns that made a snap shot shoot down possible. Moving the Fw190a to the best.

More later

Joe

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

The Spitfire itself had horrible range as well.

For information (no external tanks):

The Bf 109 G-6 had a combat range of about 530 miles.
The Fw 190 A-8 had a combat range of about 500 miles The D-9 was about 520 miles.
The Spitfire Mk. Vb had a combat range of about 470 miles.
The P-47D-25 had a combat range of about 800 miles.
The P-51D had a combat range of about 1000 miles.
The Yak-9D had a combat range of about 845 miles.
The F6F-5 had a combat range of about 945 miles.
The F4U-1A had a combat range of about 1015 miles.
The F8F had a combat range of about 1105 miles.
The P-38L had a combat range of about 1300 miles.

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

alright, whos the guy that says "other?" I want to know who and what are other......

rgm762

My Feedback: (4)

as far as innovation went, the allies had it too, but, believed more in a balanced plane, hitler on the other hand wanted it to go fast and have lots of firepower, other things could be sacrificed. he micro managed too much. the allies didn't want a plane or any other machine to have the weak spots that hilter allowed. see evils post on range difference, that's a big weakness in my book

rgm762

My Feedback: (4)

could "other" been the voices in hitler's head???

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

1942 saw the FW190A speed advantage = by the Spit IX by the end of the year and the Me262 was ready but delayed by politics. The myth of the zero was uncovered realizing it had given up armor to gain its legendary maneuverability. It was also discovered that it could not dive well, had very slow aileron response, and lost its climb advantage. So again this has to go to the FW190A.

1943 was the year of the mustang. With a speed advantage it had the ability to break off or engage.

1944 the mustang defined air superiority.

1945 the fw190d9 stole some of the mustangs thunder but it was never in a “fare fight� to realy show what ti could do.

honorable mention:
Me262A
Fw152H1
F4U

Joe

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Huh?

The P-51D top speed was 437 mph (the H never saw combat)
The Fw 190 D9 top speed was 440 mph.
The Ta-152 top speed was 472 mph.
The Do-335 top speed was 474 mph. (technically never saw combat, but there were some instances when it ran from Allied patrols, specifically Typhoons).
The Bf 109K with improved propellers could do 452 mph.
The He 162 top speed was 562 mph.
The Me 262 top speed was 559 mph.
The Me 163 top speed was 596 mph.


In the scheme of things, the P-51D wasn't all that fast. The H would have been faster than all but the jets the germans were feilding, but the germans were feilding jets...

ZERO-322

My Feedback: (2)

OK GUYS WHO CHECKED ITALY ? ....DIDN'T THEY FIELD LIKE ONLY ONE PLANE ? AND WASN'T IT OUTDATED AND OUTCLASSED WITHIN THE FIRST MONTHS OF THE WAR ?

Veltro

My Feedback: (1)

The Hawker Tempest had no difficulty dealing with the FW 190D9. It was also the allied aircraft most feared by Me 262 pilots.

I didn't check Italy (no real industrial base and a totally corrupt aircraft procurement system dominated by Fiat), but the late-war Macchi C.205, Fiat G.55 and Reggiane Re.2005 were equal to anything being fielded by other countries.

kahloq

Evli merlin...your absolutely correct. And its also obvious that there are those who have posted in the thread that dont care about reality and only are backing a plane(s) because of country of origin for reasons NOT merited to the actual aircraft themselves(ie...biased pigheadness simply because of national pride). Nothing wrong with patriotism, but some are letting that blind them to the real history and capabilites of planes not fielded by the US.
What did win the war was the industrial might of the US once geared up.....due to numbers, not technological superiority. Not a plane, but the best example is the Sherman tank compared to the Panthers and Tiger tanks Germany had. The US also could NOT win the war alone. Had Britian fallen in 1940, there would never have been a staging ground close enough to do any sort of D-day invasion. This was Hitler's biggest mistake....not finishing off Britian when it was 2 weeks away from going under(even the Brits acknowledged that). It would have taken a lot longer then 1946, 47 to defeat Germany had this actually occured, even with the Russian front. But, thankfully, that didnt happen.

In the pacific, yes the US beat Japan basically without near as much assistance as happened with germany in Europe. Also, Yes Australia aided the effort here and even built licensed Mossie's, but most planes they flew were provided by the US and britian. AKA P-40's and early Spitfires.

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Evil, As I read the initial question “Which country had the best fighters of WWII?� While I will agree that Germany had the best fighters of WWII, when taken in the context of their nations ability to produce them (we are talking about country’s here) they can not be considered as aircraft that dominated any period. Thus they are great planes but they did not have a period of time that could be pointed to where they did the job their country required of them so well they owned the sky. Thus they get honorable mention but they did not elevate there nations air force to best for their time period.

Joe

kahloq

Thats is one way of looking at it....ie opinion. Its a valid point to make though. But, the ME-109 did kinda dominate the 1938-1940 years as every thing the brits did was to counter THAT plane and it wasnt until well AFTER the BoB that britian finally got fuel injection going on the spitfire.

CastorTroy2150

My Feedback: (10)

Germany,
I say this not because of the fact that ALL thier fighters were better, but because they were better designed. Everyone know that as far as quality and percision, the Germans were it! That is why they only cranked out 1-2 tanks/planes/ ect to our like 10-15. thier designs were much more in depth, quality and not quantity, this is still VERY evident in thier manufactuing today. Look at Porsche,H&K ect. They also made great leaps and bounds as far as develpoment, fuel injection, which was much better then the CArb. that most fighters used. Allowed them to do manuvers that werent possible with Carb. fighters. Also, thier jet program was much better. Many will argue that because we won the war ours were better but in all reality they werent. We had some fighters that were better then thiers, as vise versa for them, and so on. Its hard to determine which country had the best fighters since there were so many variables, such as the pilot's experience and what not. But Im going to say Germany...

skull1971

You guys are so much fun!! It's a good thing we're all around the world and and not in one room, half wound be on the way to the ER, and the other to jail. NOT looking at who won the war, not looking at industrial might, just looking at who rolled out the best plane to send up. I picked Germany, with Britain a CLOSE second, because of the jets. ME-262, you really can't say more, and the British Meteor.
Now as far as "Workhorses" that saw combat, the U.S. hands down. NO ONE can take away anything from the P-51, P-38, P-47, F4U, or the Hellcats.

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

I agree that Germany had the best planes but don't confuse quality with complication . They were full of themselves and coulld not recognize the reality of the situation. The US is iin that same situation now. We cant afford quantity so we produce world class quality equipment ....that hopefully can holdup and maintain itself in real world operations. Think about thiis, the F22 costs how many millions? The way to counter this is to have a whole lotta F5 type fighter aircraft to couunter that threat. You don't have to have another stealth plane just a whole lotta planes. We fell for that trap in the Viet Nam war also...to some extent.

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Here I go.

I have to say Germany.

They had a lot of technical innovations. The 109s not only had fuel injection, they had water/methanol injection, NO2, injection for power boost (the "Z" designation).

Plus the variety of airframe models as well.

Imagine what was learned and developed from the captured German airframes.

I noticed one of the reasons for slow production was quality. This may be one factor, but take into consideration a lot of the labor was forced immigrant labor and made for un motivated workers. Although many paid a dear price.

A bit off topic, but related.

My Dad was a non German line worker in the DB engine factory. One day the bombs feel on this factory and landed an engine on my Dads leg, trapping him under the engine.

If it was not for a bunch of Polish workers helping to quickly free him, I would not be typing right now. A diverse group of workers. Thought I'd share that.

I have my Dads German issued pass to allow him to "be out and about" without being beat up or killed.

Steve

carlbecker

My Feedback: (3)

The best is kind of hard to determine. From what I have read the P-51 was a handful to fly with wing fuel tanks. IMHO the Germans had the best by a good margin. The Zero may have been the best in 1941 but was never developed enough. Some of the later Japanese planes where very good I don't think they would best a Bearcat. The He-162 and Me-262 and Me-163 had problems but I don't judge a plane by how it takes off, otherwise a trainer would win. I find it simply amazing at the number of german and japanese pilots that had triple digit victories. The numbers may be inflated some but they are very high numbers still. The US had allies but what won the WWII for us was the sense of purpose and manufacturing ability of the USA. I do believe the pilot is the most important piece in a fighter. Saburo Sakai flew a Zero against 16 Hellcats and survived due to his skills and the lack of skill of the American pilots and this saddens me greatly because many of my personal heros are navy or marine pilots like Thach, Smith, Carl and O'Hare. All things being equal I would rather have a Me-262 to fly in combat against all other operational fighters flown in WWII. I believe the F-86 and Mig 15 have genes from the Me-262. I am very thankful of all the efforts and sacrifices of our citizens and military but I think it dangerous not to keep your eyes and mind open.

cloudwalker

Hi corsair jock ,There were many more alied aircraft that were fantastic peformers, take your own U.S. planes that knocked the jap zeros for a six. What you have to remember is that germany had a good start in making war planes while my country was fast asleep. Its little wonder they had good machines , but i do think we cought up. If adolf made mistakes ,im all for it . Dont forget the german in the street, he didnt want to go to war , but like our fathers and grandfathers they had no choice. Pitty such brains and fantasti planes were spent on killing people. If you cant walk on water learn to swim[sm=drowning.gif]

cloudwalker

Hi skul 1971, I do agree,we are getting a bit away from what we should be talking about . Glad you mentioned the spitfire. Cheers. If you cant walk on water learn to swim[sm=drowning.gif]

jmohn

I had to vote for Germany since they had the best planes at the outbreak of the war and everyone was playing catchup after that. I wasn't until the P47 and P51s came intot he fight that the Germans had something to worry about. Sure the Spitfires were a good plane, but there wasn't enough to use offensively and they couldn't escort the bombers very far. The best plane early was the 109, later the P51 (for bomber escort roll).

Remember many of our top jet and rocket developers came from Germany, so they still get some credit for our early jets too. Anyway we are talking about WWII and we didn't get anything jet powered into the war. The Germans were way ahead of everyone. Good thing we have a better industry, training and officer core to take them out.


Jeff

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Depends on how you define early jets. The first several jets in the US inventory, the P-59 Aircomet, FJ-1 Fury, FH-1 Phantom, F2H Banshee, F9F Panther P-80 Shooting Star were all developed without German influence. In fact there were several more. It wasn't until the develoment of the F-86 Sabre that we saw the data seized from the Germans put into use (actually back then during its design it was called the P-86).