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which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
12-26-2008, 07:58 AM
#201
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
ORIGINAL: ZERO-322
HELLCAT , FOODSTICK , THE QUESTION GENTELMAN WAS ......... WICH COUNTRY PRODUCED THE BEST FIGHTER ? NOT WICH WAS THE BEST FIGHTER , TO ANSWER A QUESTION , I FEEL PILOT AND MACHINE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AFTER ALL MOST OF THE TIME ITS THE COUNTRY THAT PRODUCED AIR FRAME AND PILOT SO IN THEORY THEY ARE ONE
HELLCAT , FOODSTICK , THE QUESTION GENTELMAN WAS ......... WICH COUNTRY PRODUCED THE BEST FIGHTER ? NOT WICH WAS THE BEST FIGHTER , TO ANSWER A QUESTION , I FEEL PILOT AND MACHINE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AFTER ALL MOST OF THE TIME ITS THE COUNTRY THAT PRODUCED AIR FRAME AND PILOT SO IN THEORY THEY ARE ONE
12-26-2008, 01:34 PM
#205
RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
Not bad, BUT:
Hitler should also be given credit for the Interstate Hiway System in the U.S., since Ike got the idea from seeing the AutoBahn.
On the other hand, he was so stupid in so many ways. I have also heard that the typical Russian would have gladly surrendered (rather than fight) the Germans because Stalin was such a butcher to his own people and countrymen. What changed the Russian mind-set was the way Hitler (and his military) showed that they would treat them no better than Stalin.
Also, Stalin should be given credit for taking on 2/3 of Germany's available military resorces, while the rest of the world took on the other 1/3.
Hitler should also be given credit for the Interstate Hiway System in the U.S., since Ike got the idea from seeing the AutoBahn.
On the other hand, he was so stupid in so many ways. I have also heard that the typical Russian would have gladly surrendered (rather than fight) the Germans because Stalin was such a butcher to his own people and countrymen. What changed the Russian mind-set was the way Hitler (and his military) showed that they would treat them no better than Stalin.
Also, Stalin should be given credit for taking on 2/3 of Germany's available military resorces, while the rest of the world took on the other 1/3.
12-26-2008, 02:06 PM
#206
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
ORIGINAL: CorsairJock
And, if I were to add my 2 cents: I think the concensus among the Allies was that visiblity became a more important factor, and manueverabily a less important one. Seeing the enemy before he saw you, combined with superior speed and/ or climbing ability became the key to success. That is why as the war progressed: more aircraft had their canopies being replaced with either 'Malcolm Hoods' OR 'bubble canopies'. In the case of the Mustang: I have heard that the "B" was actaully slightly faster than the "D" because of the increased drag of the bubble canopy, but the consensus was it was a price worth paying for the added visibility.
If you can't interpret the question correctly, your answers cannot be taken seriously. But then again: I'm sure that is what some of you don't really care.
And, if I were to add my 2 cents: I think the concensus among the Allies was that visiblity became a more important factor, and manueverabily a less important one. Seeing the enemy before he saw you, combined with superior speed and/ or climbing ability became the key to success. That is why as the war progressed: more aircraft had their canopies being replaced with either 'Malcolm Hoods' OR 'bubble canopies'. In the case of the Mustang: I have heard that the "B" was actaully slightly faster than the "D" because of the increased drag of the bubble canopy, but the consensus was it was a price worth paying for the added visibility.
If you can't interpret the question correctly, your answers cannot be taken seriously. But then again: I'm sure that is what some of you don't really care.
Yes, the B/C's were slightly faster and more manuverable, or rather more stable in manuvering.
12-26-2008, 10:37 PM
#207
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
If you people really want to know who had the best aircraft, then we have to look at who still retains the record holders. The Do-335a still holds the speed record for a prop plane... not to mention it was a twin.
Chuck Yeager was NOT the first to break Mach 1. There are many written accounts that the Me-262 has done that during speed trials. Unfortunately every time it was done the Me 262 was so damaged it was only good for parts.
Foodstick, there was a problem in the beginning of the Me 262 being to fast for a set-up shot. After a while it wasn't a big issue after the pilot got the hang of it. Walter was on his 4th B-17 when he finally got hit in the Port Engine.
The main orders that they had was to "Hit and Run" and to attack head on in the bomber formations. It broke up the "Box" formations and gave fighter escorts a hard time.
The P-47D was a very good aircraft, but because of it's weight it wasn't very maneuverable. American pilots used to brag how good the plane was and could out dive anyone when they had someone on there 6. The Americans had a shock when they first encountered the FW-190 in combat. They discovered that the FW-190 was more maneuverable, and could dive with the P-47 right down to the ground.
Anything that got in front of a "Jug" was dead meat. It's firepower was almost unmatched.
I like the Me-109K-14. It seemed that the 109 was obsolete until that plane came out. The only problem with it though it had a lack of firepower. For a 109 it was the best, but again it was too late.
The Gotha 229 or (Horton) was way advanced for its time. It was test flown during the war, but didn't see combat. It was the first to have Stealth Technology.
So Germany had the first Jet Fighter, the first Rocket Fighter, the first Jet Bomber, the first Stealth Fighter Bomber (Only one completed.) If Germany didn't have the best... then why did the Allies get in a race to capture and ship it all home for evaluation?
Most of the American Technology today was copied and modified from the Germans. After the war most of these designers ran to the America and Britain to help the Allies compete against the new threat against Russia.
Kurt Tank out ran a squad of P-51Ds in his FW-190D9. In the right hands the Dora was a plane to have been respected.
Luftwaffe Oberst
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Chuck Yeager was NOT the first to break Mach 1. There are many written accounts that the Me-262 has done that during speed trials. Unfortunately every time it was done the Me 262 was so damaged it was only good for parts.
Foodstick, there was a problem in the beginning of the Me 262 being to fast for a set-up shot. After a while it wasn't a big issue after the pilot got the hang of it. Walter was on his 4th B-17 when he finally got hit in the Port Engine.
The main orders that they had was to "Hit and Run" and to attack head on in the bomber formations. It broke up the "Box" formations and gave fighter escorts a hard time.
The P-47D was a very good aircraft, but because of it's weight it wasn't very maneuverable. American pilots used to brag how good the plane was and could out dive anyone when they had someone on there 6. The Americans had a shock when they first encountered the FW-190 in combat. They discovered that the FW-190 was more maneuverable, and could dive with the P-47 right down to the ground.
Anything that got in front of a "Jug" was dead meat. It's firepower was almost unmatched.
I like the Me-109K-14. It seemed that the 109 was obsolete until that plane came out. The only problem with it though it had a lack of firepower. For a 109 it was the best, but again it was too late.
The Gotha 229 or (Horton) was way advanced for its time. It was test flown during the war, but didn't see combat. It was the first to have Stealth Technology.
So Germany had the first Jet Fighter, the first Rocket Fighter, the first Jet Bomber, the first Stealth Fighter Bomber (Only one completed.) If Germany didn't have the best... then why did the Allies get in a race to capture and ship it all home for evaluation?
Most of the American Technology today was copied and modified from the Germans. After the war most of these designers ran to the America and Britain to help the Allies compete against the new threat against Russia.
Kurt Tank out ran a squad of P-51Ds in his FW-190D9. In the right hands the Dora was a plane to have been respected.
Luftwaffe Oberst
AMA District II
Radio Aero Modelers Club
Pulaski, NY
Supporter of RedNeck R/C-Fulton, NY
www.redneckrc.com
12-27-2008, 07:49 AM
#208
RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
ORIGINAL: LuftwaffeOberst
......................So Germany had the first Jet Fighter, the first Rocket Fighter, the first Jet Bomber, the first Stealth Fighter Bomber (Only one completed.) If Germany didn't have the best... then why did the Allies get in a race to capture and ship it all home for evaluation?.................
......................So Germany had the first Jet Fighter, the first Rocket Fighter, the first Jet Bomber, the first Stealth Fighter Bomber (Only one completed.) If Germany didn't have the best... then why did the Allies get in a race to capture and ship it all home for evaluation?.................
12-27-2008, 08:11 AM
#209
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
Some serious errors with your post Oberst.
1.) The fastest prop plane is the Soviet Tu-114 (the Bear) at 541MPH.
2.) The fastest SINGLE engine prop plane of course is the Rare Bear Bearcat with its R-3350 at 528.33 MPH.
In its best condition while under boost the Do 335 had a max speed of 474 MPH at altitude.
The Me-262 is NOT capable of flying past Mach1. Due to its aerodynamics and lack of proper flight trims. The top speed of the Me-262 even in an exterme angle dive was 606 mph and that was with the special Rennkabine canopy. The one written account was by Hans Guido Mutke, and it was clearly shown that if he had really done so, the pitot tube wouldn't have been showing the actual speed due to its design, and over 600 MPH can give false readings due to the increased air pressure inside the probe itself.
After the war, flying the Me-262 in pristine conditions, minus armament and armor, even the RAF could only get the Me-262 up to Mach .84. The Russians tried it too and failed. It was found in testing that speeds over .86 Mach would actually force the aircraft into a trim situation that due to the design of the Me 262, the pilots could not recover from and would continually increase the speed until the aircraft tore itself apart.
Future Me 262 designs like the HG III were thought to come closer to Mach 1, but still in the transonic range.
Chuck Yeager was the first to do Mach 1 in horizontal flight. There are claims however that test pilot George Welch broken the sound barrier on 1 October 1947 in a steep dive in a XP-86 Sabre. However since no one was monitoring the flight other than the pilot, it was discounted. It XP-86 didn't offically achieve supersonic flight until April of 1948. Most of the work on the Bell X1 and in fact most other supersonic flights were only possible due to the work the Brits did with the Miles M.52.
Also the Ho 229 was never stealth. The radar return on the engines alone gave it a larger radar return than even the Bf 109.
Tank supposedly outran four P-51's in the Ta-152, not the Fw 190 D9's.
1.) The fastest prop plane is the Soviet Tu-114 (the Bear) at 541MPH.
2.) The fastest SINGLE engine prop plane of course is the Rare Bear Bearcat with its R-3350 at 528.33 MPH.
In its best condition while under boost the Do 335 had a max speed of 474 MPH at altitude.
The Me-262 is NOT capable of flying past Mach1. Due to its aerodynamics and lack of proper flight trims. The top speed of the Me-262 even in an exterme angle dive was 606 mph and that was with the special Rennkabine canopy. The one written account was by Hans Guido Mutke, and it was clearly shown that if he had really done so, the pitot tube wouldn't have been showing the actual speed due to its design, and over 600 MPH can give false readings due to the increased air pressure inside the probe itself.
After the war, flying the Me-262 in pristine conditions, minus armament and armor, even the RAF could only get the Me-262 up to Mach .84. The Russians tried it too and failed. It was found in testing that speeds over .86 Mach would actually force the aircraft into a trim situation that due to the design of the Me 262, the pilots could not recover from and would continually increase the speed until the aircraft tore itself apart.
Future Me 262 designs like the HG III were thought to come closer to Mach 1, but still in the transonic range.
Chuck Yeager was the first to do Mach 1 in horizontal flight. There are claims however that test pilot George Welch broken the sound barrier on 1 October 1947 in a steep dive in a XP-86 Sabre. However since no one was monitoring the flight other than the pilot, it was discounted. It XP-86 didn't offically achieve supersonic flight until April of 1948. Most of the work on the Bell X1 and in fact most other supersonic flights were only possible due to the work the Brits did with the Miles M.52.
Also the Ho 229 was never stealth. The radar return on the engines alone gave it a larger radar return than even the Bf 109.
Tank supposedly outran four P-51's in the Ta-152, not the Fw 190 D9's.
12-27-2008, 09:05 AM
#212
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
ORIGINAL: LuftwaffeOberst
The P-47D was a very good aircraft, but because of it's weight it wasn't very maneuverable.
The Gotha 229 or (Horton) was way advanced for its time. It was test flown during the war, but didn't see combat. It was the first to have Stealth Technology.
The P-47D was a very good aircraft, but because of it's weight it wasn't very maneuverable.
The Gotha 229 or (Horton) was way advanced for its time. It was test flown during the war, but didn't see combat. It was the first to have Stealth Technology.
Second I had always read that the 229 NEVER flew, they just found the parts and plans. It's in Washington D.C. the last i heard. Evil you have any insite into that?
12-27-2008, 09:10 AM
#213
RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
ORIGINAL: Taildragger
That's easy, We won didn't we.
That's easy, We won didn't we.
Also, that lame argument has been posted several times before in this thread. The question wasn't 'which country won WWII', it was "which country had the best fighter planes of WWII "
12-27-2008, 09:14 AM
#214
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
The Ho-229 in its final incarnation the Ho-IX V3 never flew.
The V2 however did fly, and it crashed after two hours of flight time. The V2 was actually powered by Jumo 004's not the BMW 003's as was intended due to engine shortages.
The V2 however did fly, and it crashed after two hours of flight time. The V2 was actually powered by Jumo 004's not the BMW 003's as was intended due to engine shortages.
12-27-2008, 09:20 AM
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
WOW! I'd have loved to have seen the V2 fly, learned something
. Also the, was it, Ta-183, that would have been neat.
. Also the, was it, Ta-183, that would have been neat.
12-28-2008, 06:26 PM
#218
RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
I am guessing that Christmas has taken the fight outta you guys. Well from what I can see so far with almost 200 votes is that it appears that opinion is that America as a country produced the best fighters DURING the war. The arguments for America is that although we werent there in the beginning, we took what was available and made it better, faster, stronger and easier to build and maintain. American aircraft through technology and innovation and sheer numbers HELPED to win the war. The Germans on the other hand were in the fore front at the beginning of war but sorta rested on there laurels for what ever reasons. Their aircraft were generally the dictators of esign and direction. They chose howeever to depend upon upgrades qnd unproven theories and technology to win the war for them instead of perfecting what they had. Their short sightedness and lack of leadership seemed to have destroyed their hope to be or have the leading aircraft industry. Great britain is credited with having the right plane and technology to keep the Germans at bay but their industrial base was insuffieint to keep or take them into the lead. The Japaneese planes and industry were mired in the tradition of a long ago world which was carried into a modern world and war , which was sufficient for wars with 3rd world nations. They did however learn but not nearly soon enough.
I learned alot from you guys which is why I did this poll. The issues that arise and the issues that remain after this thread has walked its path are interesting. There still seems to be issues with pride, ignorance and prejusdice which all turns into a lack of conversation and undersatnding which is basically how and why there was a world war 2.
So, what did you guys get from this?
I learned alot from you guys which is why I did this poll. The issues that arise and the issues that remain after this thread has walked its path are interesting. There still seems to be issues with pride, ignorance and prejusdice which all turns into a lack of conversation and undersatnding which is basically how and why there was a world war 2.
So, what did you guys get from this?
12-28-2008, 07:42 PM
#221
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
Ram-bro I learned from this post
1)Evil is still the #1 source for facts on planes hands down
2)Evil is still the #1 source for facts on plane hands down
3)For guys that fly RC planes and control them 100% I find the original question interesting just because it was asked in a manner and reinforced so many times in this post with no regards to the pilots . I know I know I know , its not about the pilots , and the question was clear , but for the sake of the arm chair quater backs , beer drinking red blooded rc guy that knows deep down ITS ALL ABOUT THE PILOTS - Dont care what anyone says Top Gun was invented to build the best skilled pilots , as far as the Navy was concerned they had the best planes (while always improveing ) it was about the pilots .
Again not to steal from your post or be ignorant to the question but you asked what I learned and all I am saying is that the highly skilled pilots made the planes do what they can do best (in my opinion and reinforced by my interpretation of the history and the individual battles )
So does the best planes from any country mean off the assembly line or proven in the air with proven pilots ?
Is the best RC plane out of the box or how it actually flys ?
Was the Zero better then the P40 or did the P40 have better pilots is a best plane /country judge by its record in the air /war or performance on paper ?
1)Evil is still the #1 source for facts on planes hands down
2)Evil is still the #1 source for facts on plane hands down
3)For guys that fly RC planes and control them 100% I find the original question interesting just because it was asked in a manner and reinforced so many times in this post with no regards to the pilots . I know I know I know , its not about the pilots , and the question was clear , but for the sake of the arm chair quater backs , beer drinking red blooded rc guy that knows deep down ITS ALL ABOUT THE PILOTS - Dont care what anyone says Top Gun was invented to build the best skilled pilots , as far as the Navy was concerned they had the best planes (while always improveing ) it was about the pilots .
Again not to steal from your post or be ignorant to the question but you asked what I learned and all I am saying is that the highly skilled pilots made the planes do what they can do best (in my opinion and reinforced by my interpretation of the history and the individual battles )
So does the best planes from any country mean off the assembly line or proven in the air with proven pilots ?
Is the best RC plane out of the box or how it actually flys ?
Was the Zero better then the P40 or did the P40 have better pilots is a best plane /country judge by its record in the air /war or performance on paper ?
12-28-2008, 08:03 PM
#222
RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
LDM, it really isnt the plane, its about knowing your strengths and weaknesses. In a boxing match, who is the better fighter? The boxer or the brauler? Cant be answered because there are to many variables but if yoou give either one the correct and good equipment and great coaching a a good strategy, does one or the other have a better chance of winning, not guaranteed just a better chance. Does that answer your question? So back on track the question still stands.........
12-28-2008, 08:07 PM
#223
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
Ram,
actually most of the german planes were much easier to maintain. The problem was as the war got worse and worse the availablity of good "black men" the ability to maintain the aircraft went right down the toilet.
Take for example the cowling and engine access for the FW 190 or Bf 109. Very easy to access, and you didn't have to pull everything off, the engine's covers were broken up into various sections that covered the areas that needed the maintenance. In fact following the capture of the Fw 190 the fastening system used was copied very quickly by the Russians in later war aircraft.
It was the ability for America to continue to produce not only aircraft but well trained pilots to fly said aircraft. The Fw 190 in 1941 was technically superior to even the late war P-51D's. It wasn't until the H models started hitting that the level of American technology in aircraft approached that of the Germans.
The Germans never rested on the laurels earned, rather were beaten (rightfully so) into submission. German aircraft continued to evolve (be it the Bf 109 in all its incarnations, to the Fw into the Ta's, the various jet aircraft, engine and weapons technology...). Its hard to develop something new and build it out when your factories are getting bombed, your research centers are turned to rubble (look at what happened at Peenemünde) and most of your scientists are killed outright or due to Hitlers maniac episodes sent to the front and not recalled to work on "Wonder Weapons" until 1944.
Remember, the OP asked us what country had the best fighter planes of WW2. Not bombers, not pilots, nothing other than best fighter planes.
actually most of the german planes were much easier to maintain. The problem was as the war got worse and worse the availablity of good "black men" the ability to maintain the aircraft went right down the toilet.
Take for example the cowling and engine access for the FW 190 or Bf 109. Very easy to access, and you didn't have to pull everything off, the engine's covers were broken up into various sections that covered the areas that needed the maintenance. In fact following the capture of the Fw 190 the fastening system used was copied very quickly by the Russians in later war aircraft.
It was the ability for America to continue to produce not only aircraft but well trained pilots to fly said aircraft. The Fw 190 in 1941 was technically superior to even the late war P-51D's. It wasn't until the H models started hitting that the level of American technology in aircraft approached that of the Germans.
The Germans never rested on the laurels earned, rather were beaten (rightfully so) into submission. German aircraft continued to evolve (be it the Bf 109 in all its incarnations, to the Fw into the Ta's, the various jet aircraft, engine and weapons technology...). Its hard to develop something new and build it out when your factories are getting bombed, your research centers are turned to rubble (look at what happened at Peenemünde) and most of your scientists are killed outright or due to Hitlers maniac episodes sent to the front and not recalled to work on "Wonder Weapons" until 1944.
Remember, the OP asked us what country had the best fighter planes of WW2. Not bombers, not pilots, nothing other than best fighter planes.
12-28-2008, 08:57 PM
#224
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RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
The only thing worse then a "know it all", is a "know it all" that has to correct people at every chance they get, just to prove it.
Evil Merlin, why can't you just let it go and allow Ram-bro to make a point? He may not have been completley acurate, but everyone(except you) saw his meaning.
My god! you're like the kid in the playground that has to have it "his way", and any one who says something different gets "bopped" on the nose.
Everybody here knows you know something about the history of aviation and airplanes, but do you really need to correct everyone who doesn't see it your way?
I'll bet you suffer from "little man" syndrome as well.
-M51
Evil Merlin, why can't you just let it go and allow Ram-bro to make a point? He may not have been completley acurate, but everyone(except you) saw his meaning.
My god! you're like the kid in the playground that has to have it "his way", and any one who says something different gets "bopped" on the nose.
Everybody here knows you know something about the history of aviation and airplanes, but do you really need to correct everyone who doesn't see it your way?
I'll bet you suffer from "little man" syndrome as well.
-M51
12-28-2008, 09:06 PM
#225
RE: which country had the best fighter planes of WWII
Just so you know, I was only summarising what you guys were saying, right or wrong. Remember these are only your opinions...how much facts were used in the arguments is debateable. Evil merlin and Mustang, no offense taken, this is what this is all about....information sharing....