DaddySam

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I have both Shindin and Sierra. As I get to the center sections I'll post my results.
Sam

CRG

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Thanks Sam.

DaddySam

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Roy said that folks have tried many different options to keep the gear doors flush with the wings when using non-rotating retracts but that Darrell's design really is the ultimate answer. I think that there are several things I will try when I use the Shindin gear including a partial rotation of the gear door on the strut. But I work better with the pieces in front of me, so as I get to that part I'm sure I'll be looking at creative solutions!
Sam

CRG

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Completely understand about having all the pieces in front of you, I'm the same way. I spent a few hours on Google but didn't turn up any information on how the full size operates, anybody happen to know?

LA7flier

My Feedback: (1)

HI Daddy and Moggy
reliving the past is always dangerous but I am willing to share all I can with you (and any others interested in this bird). First, Mine is already about 12 years old and has less than 10 flights since every flight resulted in a broken wing. Both my friend and I built one of these...he sold his after he tried unsuccessfully to land it and the buyer also sold it after similar results. Here is my take; my plane simply won't flare. No matter what speed I make the approach with, wheel or 3-point, the result is the same. The plane leaps back into the air between 6 and 10 feet necessitating a "go-round". I have checked the elevator travel and although certainly not a "3-D'er", it has enough throw to force the tail down during a typical flare. I have tried with and without flaps...same result. I have moved the CG forward and back within 1 inch of the original...same result...If I slow the approach way down, there is not enough energy to flare and the plane simply smashes into the ground tearing out the gear. I replaced the original gear with Sierra Giant vailly Hurricane gear...same result...I have given up and it hangs in the rafters...I don't intend to try to fly it again as I really am done repairing the wing. I strongly suspect an incidence issue...tail or wing but either way, it is too big to fix. I do recall building about 2 degrees of washout since I do that with all my warbirds and it is not a "snap-stall" but a refusal to flare

I have seen a Vailly Hurricane on you tube land successfully so it can be done but my experience and my buddy's was not good with this bird

Best of luck to all with this plane as it is a nice flier in the air

Moggy

My Feedback: (9)

Not if you guys have been following Stan but here are some excerpts from his maiden and some good pointers:

Vailly aviation recommends the centre of gravity to be 4 1/2 to 5 Inches (114 to 127mm) back from the leading edge of the wing at the root. Roy emailed me to confirm that I should set up at 4 3/4� . He confirmed that 4 3/4� is correct by both calculation and flight trials so 4 3/4� (121mm) it will be with wheels up and dry.
Its always easy to be critical of a plane like this after completion. I like to look at the overall and pick out things I could have done better and will do better on the next project.
There are four major things that get up my nose with this Hurricane, one mechanical and three visual.
Mechanical

Is the excessive weight in the rear of the aircraft causing the addition of lead ballast to get the required C of G. If I was to build this plane again I would substitute balsa for most of the pine stringers, lighten all of the ply formers aft of the C of G and make a lighter stabiliser, rudder and fin. I would replace the steel elevator joiner and substantial pine elevator pushrod with carbon tubing and have the lightest pos-sible tail wheel assembly. My advice to anyone building a Vailly Hurricane is to have a set of digital scales next to your workbench, weigh everything and make an as-sessment on if you can lighten them somehow, keep a score of the weight you have saved..
Visual

The wing to fuselage fit. No excuse for the lousy wing / fuselage fit, when I laid it up I had the incorrect wing incidence. When I fitted the wing correctly all the lumps and hollows were in a different position causing the gaps.
The incorrect shape of the wing fillets. The rear of the wing fillets are the wrong shape, The ones on the plan are more like P40 or Spitfire fillets rather than Hurri-cane fillets. I should have picked that up when I was making them, this exacerbated the lousy wing / fuze fit and caused the wing walkways to be smaller than they should be.
The beefy wing tips. If I had shaped the balsa wing tips to achieve the sharp edges of the full size it would have resulted in too sudden a taper at the end of the wing. This is caused by the depth of the wing tip ribs, still, I could have compro-mised better than I did.
A less important issue was with the decorating, I found out after I had painted the wheel wells to simulate zinc chromate that the wells weren't painted at all on the full size and I should have simulated natural aluminium.
Any way the thing was built for fun and was never meant to be a “count the rivets� type scalie. I am happy to have made a nice model representative of the type even if it is a bit of a lead sled.
Big thanks to Bob for test flying and thanks Robert, Andrew and Peter for the
pictures and thanks to you for staying with us for the last fifteen months. I hope the result of all of this is that somebody out there will now feel that scale modelling is rewarding, not a black art and will have a bloody go!!!
Cheers and beers
Stan

Moggy

My Feedback: (9)

A side note: I have been looking into Fliteskin as an alternative material for construction. It's light and strong, comes in a host of thickness what do you guys think?

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

Hi Pete,
Good to hear from you. I had seen Stan's comments and it more than ever convinces me I'm on the right track with the mostly balsa stringers on the fuse. I'm prepared to use the Sierra tail wheel mechansim for display only if I have to, but I'm really hoping that I can retain them. As for the tail weight, I did not see much of a difference between the BT and the Vailly construction. However the big joiner does weigh quite a bit. I"d be interested to see if I can go with one wire size down or maybe some other material it might be worth it. From the materials weighing I've done (and I do have a scale next to my workbench) I think the major weight savings will be from substiuting the balsa stringers. I'm almost done with my Corsair gear door rework and then I"ll be hopefully posting some progress on this build.
Sam

Moggy

My Feedback: (9)

How much weight do you think you can save by using balsa stringers? Do you think you can use all balsa stringers?

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

Your question got me thinking, so I got out a 48" section of 1/2x 1/8 spruce stringer, 1/8" square balsa capstrip, and 1/8"x 5/8" balsa stringer and did some weighing. It's not exact, because while most of the spruce stringers are supposed to be capped with balsa, not all are, and not all the stringers run from the midpoint of the wing all the way back to the tail. But here is what I found:'
the spruce/balsa combination weighed 14 grams per 4 feet, or 3.5 grams per foot. The 5/8" balsa, which is the same width as the spruce plus the capstrip, is 4 grams per four feet, or 1 gram per foot. I measured the Hurricane from the approximate CG to the end of the fuse, and it is 46". I choose those measurements because I'm trying to get a very rough estimate of the weight behind the CG that will be saved. So, if I use 42" as a conservative measurement for the average length of a stringer from CG to tail, and there are 54 stringers.....Let me see.....3.5 feet x 3.5 grams x 54 equals 661.5 grams or about 23 ounces for spruce/balsa combo, and for balsa only, 54 x 3.5 feet x 1 gram equals 189 grams or 6.75 oz, which gives a weight savings of 16.23 oz, or one pound of weight behind the CG saved! I'm still using some spruce on the corners, spine, and underside to provide some protection against dings, but that should translate into quite a bit of noseweight saved in addition to the weight of just the wood.
Sam

dubs1946

Hi all, Bob flew the maiden flight of Stans Hurricane at our scale contest last year, not the best time to test fly but Bob was given a clear field and sky to fly, I was the C.D. at the contest and it was a heart in mouth test fly as he had taken over one thousand hours to build the Hurricane and to test fly in front of a mass of onlookers to say there was a hushed silence would be an understatement even from Motor mouth me on the mike.
The aircraft did not win the over 7kg section due to the bad landing so he dropped points.
As Stan has said it would not flair, Stan has since rebuilt the back end with a bigger tail plane and it is much lighter in the rear and he has dumped a load of lead from the nose, if you want to e-mail Stan you can get him at.
[email protected]
I am sure he will be more then happy to discuss his modifications with you.
If you go to our site.
http://www.wrcs.org.au/
You will see that Stan is building his 3rd Ziroli Kittyhawk and you can follow him there as well its on the front page.
Dave.

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

Thanks Dave. I will contact Stan. It's been quite a while since I've emailed him. Glad to hear he's got it flying!
Sam

dubs1946

Hi Sam, no he has not flown it with the new rear section yet as far as i know and i see him flying most weeks, it looked like the tail lost authority on the landing and it would not pull the nose up.
Anyhow chat with Stan.
dave.

Moggy

My Feedback: (9)

It wouldn't flair. That's the same problem LA7 had with his. I am getting concerned about this project, especially if I am going to dump a fair amount of cash into retracts and a new engine.

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

I hear you Pete. But I've always liked the Hurricane's lines and am committed to seeing this through. I may look into enlarging the stab and elevators by extending out one rib but I'm not sure. Stan's Kittyhawk build pix has given me a possible solution to the heavy 3/16" elevator joiner, which could save a bunch of weight too. My elevator throw will also have a landing mode with plenty of travel - maybe I'll link it to the flap deployment or something.
I'm very grateful to have the flight and building reports of others while I'm at a stage where I can try to head some of the issues off.
Sam

Moggy

My Feedback: (9)

Sam

This design has been out for a long time and we don't see many of them flying maybe that is a sign. There has to be someone out there in RC Land that has had success with this plane. John Clark said his design was a beast to land as well, maybe this is a characteristic of the full scale bird. I will be watching your build and I hope you don't have to re-engineer the build. You're knee deep in the build so there is no turning back. All the best!!!!

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

I'm going to keep my eyes open and imagination active. I've toyed with the idea of making two sizes of stab/elevator and coming up with a tube mount. That way I could try both sizes. The plans do call for 30 degrees up elevator throw and 60 degrees typical flap deployment, although Roy now advises max elevator throw and 30 degrees flap. I still feel that weight plus the small tail adds up to trouble. I am sure I will test fly the first one without a bunch of detail.
sam

Moggy

My Feedback: (9)

Sam

You might want fly in the primer before you paint and detail just in case you need to do some work. Just a thought.

DaddySam

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That is absolutely what I'll be doing.. hoping of course for perfection!

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

I have been doing a bit of work on the Hurricanes. Amazing how long it takes to get back into a project. I've routed the elevator pushrod - just need one more support in the fuse. It took me quite a while looking at pictures, measuring off them, etc. to figure out where to put the access hatch on the starboard side. I figure I"ll but the radio switch/charge jacks there (circled in red) and the air tank fill valve. I'll use a more forward compartment to house the hatch for the engine switch and gas tank filler.
I've done a bit of corresponding with Stan, from Down Under, and he said he had made a new stab for his that was wider by one rib bay. He said that he's shown it to some folks and so far nobody has spotted the enlarged tail feathers. So I too am going to give this a try, although I have a feeling that by keeping the weight down it will be a better mannered plane. Just that I don't feel like pulling the tail of a completed bird if I can do while it's in the bones. The pictures show the 1/16 inch core with the rear spar, and the original stab for comparison.
Sam

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

I've been doing some thinking about how to cover the fuselage with the rear being fabric. I was looking at the pictures of a Hurricane sent to me by a fellow modeler, and also the rebuild pix of AM274. at www.jneaircraftrestoration.com. It looks to me like the Hurricane fuse was fabric covered right up to the front of the windscreen, and that some of the removeable panes might have been metal. I am considering doing fabric up to that joint and then mimicking the metal panels with fliteskin. Of course the port access panel will have to be removeable for the gas fill and engine switches.

Is it just me or is everybody having trouble with RCU's reliability, esp. when uploading pix?

NA-73X

DaddySam, I've been lurking around here watching this thread since it started. My Hurri was farther along than yours then and i've since finished it. I have 20 flights on it now and haven't broken so much as a prop. In my opinion, a lot of what is written about this bird is unnecessarily scary. You just have to keep some power on through the landing approach. If it gets too slow the nose will drop abruptly. Elevator won't bring it back up, but power will. Use the flaps to keep the speed down, fly it on, then cut power. Mine shows no tendency to bounce, but I have only flown off grass. The plane is a pleasure to fly and viceless in every other flight regime.

It is 27.0 lbs. with a G62 including 8 oz. in the nose. Sierra retracts.

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

Thank you for un-lurking! That is wonderful news indeed. Could you share some pictures of your Hurricane? Or if you have any video that would be good too. I would love to be talked into shelving the enlarged tail feathers if for no other reason than it will put me further along. This is without a doubt my most complex build to date, partially because it is from plans without an instruction manual. I look forward to hearing/seeing more of you and your Hurricane.
Sam

NA-73X

Sorry, there's no video. If I can figure out how to upload, here is a shot "in the bones" and a couple of the completed plane.

Be warned - this one is a Sunday flyer and is monocoted and generally devoid of scale details.

LA7flier

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I think the best you can say about this plane is it has mixed results! As I said, I have seen one fly and land on You Tube just fine and I have seen two (mine and my buddies) fail to flair. A third poster has described the same problem of failure to flair. NA-73X is having success...I'm not sure where that leaves anybody except "pay your money and take your chances" The Vailly Hurricane flies great in the air and mine tracks and takes off beautifully (much better than Spitfires) but the landing characteristic is a "deal-breaker" for me. Believe me, if I could figure out how to land this bird, I would be out flying it constantly.