RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Comments from a newbeee to scale, and pretty much the whole hobby.
My first planes were all arf's. All I wanted to do is put it together and fly (crash) for fun. As the learning curve went up each one went together more quickly and better than the one before it. Now I have moved on to my first -kit-.

As I am progressing and learning how to glue the crushed out pieces of the puzzle together many other categories become apparent to the end product. Basic profile, type of construction, type of finish, detailing etc.
With my basic compulsive perfectionist nature I already know that I will someday want to be able to compile information on a particular plane. Come up with my own plans. build and finish it.( Hopefully be able to fly it as well.)
When the time comes for judging any of my work I would want it to done on the level.

I will say that I have very little knowledge in the rules or how judging is done. Except for what I have read. And reading isn't always real world practice.

Is It fair for to the competitor that has invested the time in researching, documentation, designing his own plans, scratch building, finishing, weathering and whatever else I have yet to learn about, against a plane that was [by someone else] in any of those categories.
Should the laser cut kit be judged equally against the competitors Hand cut, or the kit with the fiberglass fuse with all the panel lines, rivets, fasteners and hatches already molded in.
So far what I have read in [ dutch Jan Hermkens ] post seems to be a way to keep these issues on the level. Bonus points for levels of achieved difficulty/ accomplishment.
That will then generate a whole other endless discussion on what the categories should be and what bonus should be awarded to it.

As to the flying portion of the judging I am still at it with the LT-40. enough said.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Pand9,
Check out the B-25J in my gallery here on RCU. I scratch built it myself. I had a 3 view of a B-25J in about 1/32 scale drawn in 1943. I sized up everything to 1/12th scale. Once finished, I displayed her at the monthly club meeting. Everyone told me she is too beautiful to fly, so she flies 24/7 in the entry way of my home. I would have put scale gear in her if I was going to fly her. The point is, I built the aircraft, to include drawing and cutting each and every part. Good luck.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<font size="2">Somehow the point was lost by the very issue that exists. That being ignorance of the subject on the part of the majority ofmodelers be they AMA, FAI,or Big MAAC's.</font>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">It says I voted, so I must have. I would have voted for letting everyone compete on an even playing field.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">I competed for years before fun scale existed. I found that a well built and regularly flown model was more important than a museum peace. The museum peaces usually don&rsquo;t see a lot of direct sunlight so to beat them was easy, reliability and familiarity.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">I always thought it was interesting that we fly scale models of aircraft that were built in factory&rsquo;s and not flown by the builder. Now our little world is duplicating the real world.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">Having said that, I am from the birthplace of IMAA and it wiped out the local meets completely. So I&rsquo;m for anything that brings them back.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">Joe</div>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

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RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Nice approach Ed,

just to sad most people do not understand the article by Kent Walters about scale speed realism - including the most scale judges. This is a "must read"!

A friend was at the top gun and he lost points because he flu a high speed pass too fast. According to Kent Walters he just reached cruise speed. Kent is dead on with his chart - and I fly according to this chart...even when I suffer points.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

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RE: Scale Poll......again
 

All I can add is that, as a builder who likes to build from wood, and one who can appreciate the level of surface detail that must be added to a competition plane, it seems wholly unfair to me that those same planes would be competing against something like a PCM 109, a CompArf Mustang, or say a SiS-T FW 190....nothing against those planes...I love them....but it just doesn't seem fair that someone who doesn't do all that surface detail themselves would get the benefit of having another top modeler do it to get the mold like that-and thus, the modeler's own plane like that without the effort to get it in that shape. That is a huge time outlay.  <div>
</div><div> Probably too tough of a line to draw in the sand for competing I would guess....where do you stop?  Is a glass fuse o.k., while one that has all the panel lines and rivets already molded in not o.k.?  Is a glass fuse that has formers already installed, too prefabbed?  Is one that doesn't have this then within reason of any rules on that part?  I see the hornet's nest that would ensue from even attempting to have more legislation than any already present I guess.
</div><div>
</div><div>In the mean time, I guess I'll just not worry about competition, while using those planes for inspiration and goals.  Can't imagine that I'm alone in my feelings, but would also guess that there are many who completely accept the planes mentioned above to be in fair competition with anything else.  Any plane sitting there has a ton of work in it, which is probably appreciated by most people looking at them anyway.  Good topic for discussion tho.</div>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

wow , another blast from the past. The topic is very relavent no matter the age. Hey Flitematal, what brought ths back into the limelight?

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">Ed as I said, I&rsquo;m for anything that would get competition going again. But here a contest has to compete with a fly in. when pitching it to a club the contest costs more up front, higher risk. When drawing fliers they can come and go as they please at a fly-in. so how do I counter that freedom? In the early 80&rsquo;s we had a scale contest every weekend all summer long by 88 they had all switched to fly-ins for the reasons listed above. I was one of the last to give in, but pilots where polarized contest vs un-contest. To say the success of a contest has nothing to other organizations is frivolous at best, in your own words &ldquo;it&rsquo;s a numbers game&rdquo;.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">As for fidelity to scale, ARF&rsquo;s are here to stay!</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">Workmanship, ARF&rsquo;s are here to stay!</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt">Remember &ldquo;it&rsquo;s a numbers game&rdquo; and while &ldquo;<span style="font-size: 10pt">creativity and fore-thought&rdquo;may delay it, the inevitable, is inevitable. </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">Joe </span></div>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<span style="font-family: Arial"><span><span><span><span>.</span></span></span></span></span></p>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Ed Clayman and G-Pete, I appreciate your writings. Many good points. Ed your comments on the Newbie bring back memories for me. I did some scale a few years back with moderate success, yet as a Newbie I will never forget a particular NATS where I wanted to learn how to make a better scale documentation book. I thought the best way to do it would be to look at what the top pilots were contributing and then build my book in a similar fashion. Most of the pilots left there books right by the plane and if you were careful and respecting of their material they were glad to let you look at it. Even proud to share it with you and that you would be interested. Yet I'll never forget an exchange I had with one of the top name brand pilots several years back. I asked if I could see his documentation. He said, "No". I honestly thought he was kidding, so I asked again and he said, "No" and I realized he was dead serious. I realized then and there that he had his game face on. It was game day for this pilot and the competition was on. It didn't matter if I was a Newbie or not. I was a potential competitor that was asking to see the the play book. Not going to happen. I've never took competition that serious. I thought we were out there to have fun. Maybe a stronger competitive spirit on my part would be required to win, I'm just not sure if I want to play that way.

G-Pete, Regarding scale speed. Itry to practice and fly my routines with great consistency from flight to flight. Without fail one judge will write a comment that it was too fast. Another will write a comment that it was too slow. You cannot win! Over the years I've come to realize that they have no clue. We've found greater success by giving them noticable changes in throttle setting. I exaggerate it to some extent. They want to hear a tone change on the engine and somehow that must mean that you are the master of your craft and that you have set the proper speed. It is so stupid. But it works. In my opinion most judges are not looking at the speed of the airplane at all but rather they are listening for throttle changes. They want to see that left stick move up and down. It is sad, but what I've learned over time is that to score well you have to deliver what the judges want to see and not what would be a truly scale. The key is figuring it out. That does not come by replicating accurate scale speed, reading the rulebook, or by studying how the full scale airplane flies. It seems to come by flying a maneuver (right or wrong) in front of them and seeing how they score it. Adjusting accordingly, then replicating it again.

When a WWIIfighter does an aileron roll it climbs before entry and then falls in altitude throughout the maneuver. We all know this and I've seen it hundreds of times up at Oshkosh over the years. So you would think that the best score would be achieved by doing an aileron roll with a nice arc curve to it. The rulebook even says something about this regarding prototypical flight. Forget this. I've gotten the best scores for this maneuver when I have done them close to dead flat like a pattern plane would execute it. Got my worst scores when doing it with a nice arc. Even had a judge write one time that I did not maintain altitude during the roll. Unbelievable, but you cannot argue with them. So I just don't do aileron rolls anymore because I cannot stand to do them flat. It is much easier to do some boring procedure turn that they can understand.

Leo

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Greetings from Finland

Intresting conversation we are going through that same here.

But one questions
When ARF is not ARF any more?
<ul>[*]Heavily bashed, example RBeans P-36 it started as ARF P-40 but now it looks totally different[*]Crashed and rebuilt ARF coverings and colours changed?[*]Lots of details added or changed?[*]ETC[/list]Very thin or non existent line here. If there is letters ARF on the top of the box, does it mean that there is no possibility change it to real scale model?

I totally agree, that that pilot should not get points, if plane is built by somebody else.Old Erkki

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<span style="font-size: larger"><span><span><span style="font-family: Verdana"><span><span>.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">I always figured that the most important part of my flight was finding out what the judges expected from me the pilot. I found the best time to do this was at the pilots meeting and before each flight. At the pilots meeting the judges are usually there, at my contests it was required, so I would ask the question &ldquo; all maneuvers are to be flown from the center of the runway, in some events they designate that to be the far edge of the runway, what do the judges prefer?&rdquo; this usually will start a discussion between the judges and CD and will yield everyone on the same page. Then ask the judges the type of planes they owned and flew &ldquo;in an effort to better understand the background of the judges, what planes have they built and flown in the last two years.&rdquo; This tells me how I have to fly. Ie if they list sport planes, that meant co-ordinated maneuvers would not be appreciated. I had a whole list of these question that gave invaluable info about the judges. </span></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">When walking in front of the judges don&rsquo;t just start your plane. Walk up to the judges and ask if you can give them a schpeal before they start the clock. Most will say sure. Some will ask the CD. Some will say no. the CD will say it is their call, and the no&rsquo;s get a real short version. I then describe the flight I intend to do.</span></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"></span><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">Today I will be flying a P-47D the full size having been flown by xxxxxxxx , my flight load does not include any bombs or drop tanks so I will not be using flap on takeoff. Once in the air I plan to fly the jug to optimize its advantages over any enemy aircraft that may be in the area. This means that most turns will be Split-S, descending chandelles, or aileron turns to keep the speed up. If you want I can do a down and dirty pass prior to landing (as I demo the flaps and retracts holding the plane right in front of them), they will never ask for it (AMA rules), now some of the rules require it (non AMA). Then hand them my score sheet and briefly describe how I plan to fly each maneuver starting point for vertical maneuvers because you want to move them off center for better viewing angle. The judges will ask questions and they will lead to others. But when you are done you will be at ease, the judges are now friends, and you are a pilot that knows his stuff. Now you just need to perform.</span></span><span style="font-size: 18pt; line-height: 115%"></span></div>

<span style="font-size: small">Joe</span>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I was going to post earlier when Pete posted the Kent Walters Chart. Then Ed posted that the Chart shows what would LOOK RIGHT. No it doesnt. It shows what Kent worked out starting I think with nasa dynamic simulacrum research which is the speed an exact model will need to do certain manouvers.. What looks right is linear scale speed. Kent acknowleges that. early in his work . Then he seems to get all tied up in working out his theory. What judges think look right is what they are used to. f you think that you need dynamic simulacrum compensation for a high speed pass then you probably have no idea what dss is for. The problem now is that most judges actually consider most scale flights, especially in the landing phase, to be too slow. The reason is that they go by what they are used to,because most pilots stay away from the low end of their planes speed envelope. When they do see a plane land as slow as full scale then it looks unusual.
Going by Kents chart, a 16th plane trying to look the same as a plane flying at about 240 mph is going to fly at about 60mph. If the full scale fies an 800 ft loop it takes 7.14 seconds. The 16th plane will fly a 50ft loop to match its scale and will only take 1.8 seconds. From a spectator viewpoint if the model is at 100 feet away and the full size is at 1600 feet away the planes and their loops will look the same size. It won't look right. The only way for the small plane to emulate the full scale truly is to match the others speed, which will be the L<u>inear Scale Speed</u> I mentioned and that Kent talks about ( that is if the full scale flies at 240, then a 16th plane will match it at 15 mph) . That means the small plane has to take 7.14 seconds to look the same. There is absolutely no way to scale time so to look right we have to match scale distance to same time . By the way, if you see the 16th plane fly a 50ft loop at 60 mph then even a monkey can tell it is not even close to scale.
I will step back from diparaging Kents work but I will say that thechart above, is at the very best an outside amount for a judge to allow higher than scale speeds in a particular manouver. At worst it is confused by the unknowlegeable and taken as directions for visual scale speed which it " absolutely and most definitely is not".
I will also note that if my memory serves me right that nasa used the theory to get models to give data about a full scale so the mass was scaled down also. but I haven't seen the workfor some time. That would mean that for example in a 1/5th scale mustang of 88 inches, the plane would be 72 pounds and have an exact representation of the laminar flow wing. Nasa also had different amounts of compensation for different manouvers. ie it might need to add a % speed increase toLSS for a 5 degree bank and more as the angle increased. The chart doesn't do that.
It doesn't matter though. Our models generally are designed to fly in a certain manner so model airfoils compensate for much of this. Lighter weight than scale and higher power to weight ratios and suitable airfoilsmeans we are generally back to being able to simulate the full scale. Linearly. Why??? because we are not doing exact simulation. We do not match the mass
As a pilot and builder, I think it is my job to do my best to match visually the flight of the full scale as best as possible. To do that I have to match the scale speed as close as possible. Straight flight both fast and slow is <u>never</u> a problem and with the extra power of our engines rarely are loops, immelmans etc. the only ones that could be tricky is if i was trying to do a high banked turn at a very slow speed. The dynamic simulacrum compensation would mean that I would likely have to increase the speed to stop losing lift. but the judge wont know how slow I should be going.
The idea that I should fly my 1/4 scale Mustang at 175mph is absolutely ludicrous.The chart above is also ludicrous if you are using it to judge a scale flight. If you dont understand then I can print you up a little teaching aid that will help you to work it out. .
By the way, Pete said that many people don't even understand Kents chart. wellI do, very well. I think it is one of the worst things that has been put out to the scale community. Mostly because it is wrapped up in a seemingly very scientific package, but it is still wrong if it leads anyone to believe that scale speed is anything other than linear scale. It simply isn't. Not unless Kent has somehow managed to outdo Einstein and overcome the bonds of time.
Good luck
Paul</p>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<div style="text-align: left"><font size="2">.
</font></div>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">I&rsquo;ve used the mission in the past but found that it can sometimes back fire if the judges are not well trained so I hold back on it at small meets. But it is very importantto get the judges talking before you start your engine. The preflight intro is very important because once the judges start asking question, making comments you have a good repore. In a small meet those guy&rsquo;s will be judging each flight so it is a big advantage. Quite often during a flight judges have given me instantaneous feedback. &ldquo;what happen there?&rdquo; and I would fire back something like &ldquo;pop cycle&rdquo;, &ldquo;atmospheric inversion&rdquo;, or &ldquo;just testing to see if you are really watching&rdquo;. But when calling I try to talk all the way through the maneuver. &ldquo;my next maneuver will be a out of plane barrel roll. I will start with an elevator pull and once the nose comes up 10-20 degrees I will add A to start the roll. When the plan is inverted it should be 90 degrees to the initial direction and 100ft higher. Then should finish up in the initial direction but 50-100ft further out from us.&rdquo; Most scale judges have never even herd of an out of plane barrel roll so this allows me to equalize the scoring with the maneuvers they have been prepared for. </span></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">At the end of the flight be sure to shake the hands of the judges because again if they have a question, comment it will come out there when you have the opportunity to probe and find the common ground.</span></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">I like to tell the story to new fliers of when I was downgraded during scale judging because my P-47D rivets were no cherry rivets. I first saw this in the written comments from the judge, I then talked to the judge and he said, &ldquo;I can&rsquo;t see your rivets at 15ft.&rdquo; I pointed to a pic in my documentation that we agreed was taken at 40-60ft and we could not make out the flush rivets. My 1.7^th P-51D at 15 ft = 105ft away from the man carrying so I thought o made my point pretty well. But he said the magic words, uncle xxxxxxx flew on of these and its my favorite plane. After that it was just a matter of damage control because a small meets which this was the static judge usually is a flight judge also. So I thanked him for taking the time to talk to me then probed him on the maneuvers he expects from a P-47D.Sure enough he was a flight judge and I had a special maneuver list just for him. I put all the maneuvers in he mentioned and it paid off in spades.After that event I made the decision to rule out all American aircraft in my competition planes.</span></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">Scale speed is really a misnomer in that it can&rsquo;t cost you more than a point or two so if you are just starting out in competition there are many things that are much more important, like taking the plane home in one peace! Fly the plane! As you understanding and knowledge expands you will get to it. When ready to tackle scale speed get a good understanding of tangential velocity.This will help you to understand what you can get away with, and that the speed of your model always looks slower to the judges except when you are at center stage. So as long as you don&rsquo;t make audible changes in the engine you should be good.</span></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="line-height: 115%">Joe</span></span><span style="font-size: 18pt; line-height: 115%"></span></div>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<span style="font-size: small"><span style="font-family: Tahoma">.</span></span></p>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

As a beginner,  I have been to the last 3 Mint Juleps all in sportsman; this year I ended up scratching all my flights, at first for mechanical then wind, so it was a little disappointing this year for me, but my buddy ended up winning sportsman so that was good.  I try to listen to anyone who will talk about what they do.  Dave Johnson has a little story to go along with his maneuvers which is novel and fun to hear; some I notice will talk through the maneuver  telling the judges how they are making it, and some describe it before they fly.  The thing I see is communication is important.  <div>
</div><div>I noticed one of the best planes at the meet was being flown too slow.  It kited throughout the flights so it never looked in control; the pilot was obviously trying to keep scale speed but it never had that smooth look. </div><div>
</div><div> The opinions I would like to hear are how would you think a WW1 rotary should be presented. <div>
<div>
</div></div></div>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

<span style="font-size: medium">I don't have too much to add to the discussion as I think much of it is subjective. The only absolute is that true scale speed is in direct linear proportion to the scale of the plane.I only posted because Gpetes comment that he flies at Kents recommended speed and it is dead on no matter what, could lead someone else to make the same mistake. The chart is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.When you posted the chart and called it a decent cross reference of what looks right ( those speeds definitely dont look right by the way) I felt I needed to put a few words in there. Whether I agree with the the rest of the observations isnt important as all our individual experiences in competition is different. There are comments from you Leo and Paladin that are all worth considering.
My ultimate goal is to achieve true scale speedaccompanied with scale manouvers. True scale speed for example is for my Corsair at a scale of 5.75 doing a high speed pass ( full scale is 334 mph at sea level but I will say that I am diving with a high speed pass of 402mph) which true scale to look the same as the full size will be70 mph. Please note that Kents chart tells me that I should be flying at 164 mph. What a total load of rubbish. Flying a Byron corsair at 160mph and that is supposed to lookscale.The sad thing is that I was reading the other day a post where a guy has turned it round now,and declares the full size planes now flying, fly way too slow as he goes by the appearance of his models which he flies according to the above chart. Now the full size in his mind fly too slow. Is that not totally insane..Never mind when I put this to a friend who flies afull size Mustang, wildcat, p40 and various others , that his planes fly a little faster than the averagewartime plane because they arebetter taken care of and are in better condition. He flies them flat out and doesnt hold back except for water injection etc on the planes that have it.
I will say that I am always judged on speed in my manouvers. In the realism category where it can have a profound effect but also in individual manouvers. The slow pass obviously. A chandelle is always judged with speed considered, I have now arrived at a speed that most judges like. I like Top Gun as you are judged by a different pair of judges for each flight. They also oftenmake notations on your score sheet. I can generally understand where they are comingfrom. The thing is, if you want to win a competition, you find a model that is designed to fly well and can be made reliable. Choose manouvers that are easy to do and practice often. If you are likeme, build a plane that you want to, because the plane means something to you,no matter what the difficulties and fly a routine that you think is indicativeof the full scale. Don't worry about the outcome , just have a bunch of fun with all the guys that love scale planes just as much as you do. I don't care whether the other planes are built by the pilot , a bunch of highly paid artisans or is a cheap gussied up arf. I am flying against myself. Though stressfull, Top Gun is now my favourite flying venue. I am happy to go home with an intact plane and a hat or t shirt with my name embroidered on it. Not coming last is a great bonus and making the finals is even better.
good luck
Paul</span></p>

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Paul,

most people like you fly to close for scale speed. If you fly scale speed then you have to take also the scale distance, because you model is scaled down.
With other words you cant fly 20 feet away from you and it look right for YOU. Well, the spectators 50+ feet away see that different. Full scale at an air show make usually NOT over 200 knots. They are 600 feet at least away. If you fly your model at least 100 feet away then the picture changes.

To compare the performance at the air shows is OUT of the question. These airplanes are 60 years + old and they will be not flown full throttle. Most fly not even cruise speed of 1944.

Here is a video check this out This is half throttle...just a little closer

Mustang..

 

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Here is the clip [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrDWYOlLA-w&amp;feature=related[/youtube]

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

This video shows you how fast even the full scale gets smaller and makes distance.



Now try to visualize

<h2>450 mph that high above deck...</h2>

We flying here not 60 year old models - we fly here a replica of WW2 airplanes with their full performance.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

One more,

when I fly scale realism speed and then ask bystanders how that looked....they say- like the real deal. They first expected to fly slow like the other models (because RC models sopposed to do that) but then when you go over 100 mph the jars dropping and the boys start drooling.

BTW, with scale cruise speed you don't have to lift your airplane to make a nice scale roll - you just lose altitude like the full scale during the roll.

We have the scale masters next month here...http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif