Scale Poll......again
 

well I tried it once before and it was going good until certain ......people turned the thread into a civil war. So this time please no fragging, flaming, defaming or anything that takes away from the reason we do this...remember that this is a hobby for relaxation and joy. I narrowed the choices down to 3 with the 4th thrown in as it got alot of hits in the last poll.
Now for some definitions. I consider arfs to be anything t hat comes outta the box nearly ready to fly. Some HDAs could be considered arfs as some may feel but for our purposes I will consider them as kit builts with lotsa prefab. Non-boms are non builder of model type aircraft wether they are arfs, pre-owned, or highly prefabricated kits...how is that for walking a thin line. Now go ahead and vote and I stillwanna hear your opinions because I truelly want to see where the hobby is going and just maybe the powers that be can make all necessary and popular or unpopular changes that maybe needed to keep scale going strong. I would like to have at the end of th epoll certain guys look at the #s and see how they interpret them. Also this poll is definitely unscientific. Sit back watch and have some fun....friendly fun.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I voted for separation by type. I think that the flight characteristics of the various models is more of a differentiating factor than anything else. Some airplanes are just harder to fly well than others. They amplify your mistakes. I think it is harder to fly a good AMA figure 8 with a Cub light plane than it is with an F100 Turbine. With the cub it will take you 60 seconds in front of the judges while you demonstrate all your mistakes fighting turbulence, out-of-round, and altitude changes. With the turbine you are closer to a point and shoot situation. If you aim well to start with you have about 15 seconds in front of the judges and your done. You have less time to screw it up. Which situation takes better piloting to get it right? I say the lightplane. I will admit this is over simplified but I can speak from experience that it is easy for me to fly a 9 on any given maneuver with my Spitfire while the best I could ever do with my Pietenpol Aircamper was a 7. Same pilot on the same day. It is real.

Another advantage of separation by type would be that the ARF and non BOM airplanes would all gravitate to similar classes and compete against each other. The disparities between model aircraft within the class or by type would decrease and the big dollar aspects of winning would consolidate to 1 or 2 classes. This would provide greater opportunity for budget minded modelers to experience good competition in the remaining classes.

Leo

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Where's the "ban ARFs from the face of the planet" option? :D

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Leo is absolutely correct in what he is saying. Arfs are here to stay, like it or not Jim. So let's deal with it and let them compete in fun scale. That is why it is called "fun" scale.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I would like to see therules left as they are, with ARFs in fun scale, but would like to see a seperation between props & jets.
Lets face it, a fast flyby on a Jet is too fast to see any mistake, or down grade.:eek:

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

[sm=what_smile.gif] You're Bad! lol


I voted for seperation, again JMO.




Peter Dowling aka Luftwaffe Oberst
AMA District II # 56404
Aero Modelers Club
Pulaski, NY

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Haven't voted yet but do have a question. Does arf's come in the "seperation of type"? I like to see a seperation of arfs and kit or scratch builts.
Larry

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Just "stirring the pot" a little, half in jest.

To me, flying ARF in scale cometition would be like taking your cousin to the Prom, she may look nice but what's the point?;)

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Larry I would say No it doesn't. Seperation by type ofbuild would truelly dilute what would be a challenging situation. About as close as it would get would be to keep the classes and rules as they are....

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

LOL Jim, They do that alot here in Pulaski. :D "Gosh she sures purdy!" Cow Tiping and using Hand Granades to catch Salmon is another great past time here. I just wouldn't feel at home unless I had a flying John Deer Lawnmower ARF. LOL


Peter Dowling aka Luftwaffe Oberst
AMA District II # 56404
Aero Modelers Club
Pulaski, NY

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Hi Guys,

I don't know what non-boms are, but anyway I have voted for allowing ARF to compete but with a Penalty (not a small one!).
Here in Europe we have that system for some national and international scale Contests for many many years : Dutch Open Scale Champs (I did win this 8x), German Open Scale Champs (I am the only foreigner who did ever win this, in the past 35 years!), some other scale contests in Germany, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Austria, Republic of CZ, Poland, and last but not least the European Star Cup Championships (which I won 6x).

However one does not get a penalty but a bonus ( sounds lesser negative!) for the Basic Construction.
So the Basic construction methode is a part of the judging!! Cheeting in this is disqualification, also possible a long time after the contest, once it will come out!!

max. Static Score= 2500 points (included the eventual bonus)
max. bonus = 200 p. for construction from own plan.
160 p. for construction from a plan.
130 p. for construction from a kit, woodconstruction.
100 p. for an ARF kit
0 p. for a bought model= also 0 points for the judging part Craftmanship.

so Max. Bonus for the Basic construction = 200
further judging parts are: Craftmanship K=3,5 x max. 100 points= 200 (bought model= 0)
Fuselage K=2,5 x ,, ,, = 300
Wing K=3,0 x ,, ,, = 400
Stabilizer K=2,0 x ,, ,, = 300
Cockpit K=2,0 x ,, ,, = 200
Undercarriage K= 2,0 x ,, ,, = 200
Engine built-in K=2,0 x ,, ,, = 200
Details K=2,0 x ,, ,, = 200
Colour K=2,0 x ,, ,, = 200
Markings K=2,0 x ,, ,, = 200

max. Total =2500 points


max. flying score= 5000 points.
So the ratio Static / Flying = 1 : 2.


The same for the Fun Scale Class, only the static judgement is very simple:

Max. bonus for the Basic construction also = 200
further judging parts: Craftmanship K= 2,0 x max. 100 points = 200 (bought model = 0)
General Impression K= 3,0 x ,, ,, = 300 (very simple 3-side vieuw. Only rough judgement on outer lines)
Finish K= 5,5 x ,, ,, = 550 (colours are insignificant!)

Max. total = 1250 points

max. flying score = 5000 points.
So the ratio Static / Flying for Fun Scale= 1 : 4.

regards,
Jan, the flying Dutchman.

Oh I forgot:
Both classes are for models up to 25 kg. (55Lbs) Rules are from the European Star Cup Organization.
We still do have also the F4C scale class with the FAI rules. (not so many competitors anymore)

for my models, have a look at my homepage (my son made it!)
www.home.versatel.nl/jan.hermkens

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

The european scoring method looks pretty interesting. BOMs refers to the builder of the model, meaning that in our contests there is a builder of model rule in which you sign that you did build the model. As I am using it here, you would either delete that rule or penalize a flyer for not having built the model....

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Ram-bro, signing the BOM declaration is not enforced at the contests as it should be. I am confident there are competitors out there flying in expert with planes they did not build. Actually I could name some.... but probably shouldn't do that on here...... ;)

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

OSG, thats my name for you. Youshould pm me those names and see if we have the ssame list....:D

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

whats funny about this poll ...without the mudslinging and name calling, we already got more votes than the other poll. Think our politicians and govt could learn something from this?:)

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I don't know... our politicians are slow on the learning side due to there own selfishness. Sometimes I think, I'm the dumb one for voting for the wrong person all the time. :eek:

That reminds me, I have to give the Polling Place my change of address. [&:]


Peter Dowling aka Luftwaffe Oberst
AMA District II # 56404
Aero Modelers Club
Pulaski, NY

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Ram-Bro,
I voted. Looks like the poll concurrs with my vote.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Thanks Ram-bro,
Just what I needed to know.
Larry

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Here is a question for the masses. The BVM F100 that metalmorpheous is finishing for a customer willbe entered in some scale competitions. The wings are built by BVM. The fuse is composite and the finish is being done by this Metalmrphoous....so what category of scale competition can and should it be entered in. I think it was also mentioned that it would be entered in team scale. In team sscale do you have the same rules for BOM? Nothing against Metalmorphous, just a very pertinent question. If a plane showed up to your contest that wasnt flitemetaled , but had ametal plating finish.....would you exclude it from certain levels of competition knowing that the builder most likely did not finish it himself?:eek:

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Same rules apply for Team Scale regarding the BOM. The team consists of THE builder and A pilot. If I understand completely the build scenario of the above F100 it can only legally be entered in Fun Scale.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I just checked the poll and it appears tradition is winning at 60% of the total vote. This is good to see. I sincerely appreciate looking at a model that someone took the time and effort to build themselves.

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

your right Flak. a much crying and complaining it appears that we like the rules as they are but would liketo see planes seperated by type.......
OSG, I was curious myself what class he intended to enter. Must be funscale:D

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I voted. I'm going to keep my opinions to myself, since I tend to generate serious hate and discontent. I never see gray. I only see black and white. If it's right, it's right, and if it's wrong, no one can convince me to turn my head and ignore it. Not an apology, I'm just a die hard wysiwyg (pronounced wissywag) Stands for What you see is what you get.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

I like Leo's idea of separating the aircraft types. It is definately harder to fly a manuever slower with a lighter plane, than power through it with a heavy jet or warbird.
However, I don't see the harm in allowing ARF's into scale competition. The flight scores between an ARF Zero and kit built zero would simply reflect the differing skills or the execution of the manuevers of the 2 pilots.
Plus most scale competitions also include static judging. An ARF built up per the instruction book, no modifications, will always lose in static to the guy who builds his models, finishes with paint, details, weathers, etc. Most ARFs are finished with glossy, iron-on film, which isn't usually scale. Plus most ARF's when compared to a 3-view show major discrepencies. Therefore, it would be almost impossible to win an event with an ARF built up as designed.
Now, if a pilot were to take an ARF and completely redo it to include these finer details, I say more power to him. He has taken the time to go above and beyond building an average model, and should be allowed to compete alongside the guys who build from kits or scratch. My example has always been the Yellow Aircraft Zero. Their Zero kit comes with foam core wings that are already sheeted, fiberglass fuse, cowl, etc. World Models makes a Zero ARF that is the same size, that also features a fiberglass fuse, cowl, etc. and a foam core wing that's sheeted with balsa. Now take the World Models ARF, strip all of the covering off of the wings and sand the fuse down and prime it. Aside from any outline discrepencies, what is the difference between the kit and ARF at this point?

RE: Scale Poll......again
 

Some good ol' Southern boys go to family reunions to look for a date. Is that like buying a Dave Patrick Super Cub, hiring somebody to detail it, and then competing with it as your own?