Torpedo-basic idea
07-02-2011, 04:44 PM
#1
Torpedo-basic idea
Not much, but i got together a mico size motor and a housing for it today. Icreated this new topic mostly because all the other topics seemed to be long dead, and this is what I created in specific, though i would like ideas. IJust wanted to see if i could find a motor small enough, and this seems like a perfect base. my next main problem to get it working it the lack of batteries small enough. Im guessing i could possibly use a number of the cells used in hearing aids, but that could weight it down. Pics attached.
07-02-2011, 05:28 PM
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RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Maybe one of these small 12v batteries would work for you. Scroll to the bottom two on this page http://www.duracell.com/en-US/series...batteries.jspx
07-02-2011, 06:12 PM
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RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Fascinating setup, thanks for including the pictures. I did RC warship combat years ago, and while torpedoes were allowed
under the rules for destroyers, I never had occasion to see one in use. Those were either spring loaded or used compressed
freon (R22)
I don't see your setup as being capable of penetrating even a balsa hull, however; my guess is it won't have the
kinetic energy to do so. But, don't let that stop ya. You've got the basics already.
I couldn't tell from the pics what the torpedo is made of, but Iwould think weight would be an issue and
I'd suggest using aluminum tubing.
Please follow up as you move along with the project; Iwish you the best with it
Regards,
Oddall
under the rules for destroyers, I never had occasion to see one in use. Those were either spring loaded or used compressed
freon (R22)
I don't see your setup as being capable of penetrating even a balsa hull, however; my guess is it won't have the
kinetic energy to do so. But, don't let that stop ya. You've got the basics already.
I couldn't tell from the pics what the torpedo is made of, but Iwould think weight would be an issue and
I'd suggest using aluminum tubing.
Please follow up as you move along with the project; Iwish you the best with it
Regards,
Oddall
07-02-2011, 08:34 PM
#4
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
ORIGINAL: cheesewizz69
Maybe one of these small 12v batteries would work for you. Scroll to the bottom two on this page http://www.duracell.com/en-US/series...batteries.jspx
Maybe one of these small 12v batteries would work for you. Scroll to the bottom two on this page http://www.duracell.com/en-US/series...batteries.jspx
Thanks for the link, but they are only a few mm too big. I was thinking of maybe trying to use a capcitor or something that can hold a charge and make it be drawn out somehow? can i use a resistor for that?
I dont expect it to penetrate balsa on its own. I am trying to get a torpedo that small that even moves, as i have yet to see any. Oh, and the tube is already aluminum.
Its actually a barrel for a cheap airsoft gun.
My other two problems right now are:
-Getting a propeller that small
-switch for launching the torp. Ineed a small switch, but at the same time one that can be easily activated from the outside of the torp. I was trying to think of one, hoping magnetic but at that size im not optomistic. Any ideas guys?
07-07-2011, 11:00 AM
#7
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Interesting link- The torpedoes he makes are definatly much more complex than the ones im working on, but he has more space to work with. It seems he also wants to make his 40mm bofors operational; He obviously is into mechanical detail.
07-07-2011, 12:47 PM
#8
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Well,To conclude the first phase of testing, the torpedo sinks like a chunk of lead. But that is fine, as I have already gathered enough components to start construction of a MK. III torp.
It will be lighter, thinner, more internal space, mass produceable, and hopefully buoyant.
Also, none of you check the forum very often do you?
It will be lighter, thinner, more internal space, mass produceable, and hopefully buoyant.
Also, none of you check the forum very often do you?
07-07-2011, 07:20 PM
#11
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Quite a nice boat you have! What scale is it?
Minor update- even with a much lighter tube, my initial tests showed the motor would weight down one end, causing it to sink. There is too many factors i could change right now to make that a nail in the coffin. Also, I have been looking at using gas systems either as an initial propellent, or as a torpedo's own power, which, technically, sounds much less complicated,cheaper, and easier to make, at the cost of lower range, higher operationg costs, and more potential danger.
Minor update- even with a much lighter tube, my initial tests showed the motor would weight down one end, causing it to sink. There is too many factors i could change right now to make that a nail in the coffin. Also, I have been looking at using gas systems either as an initial propellent, or as a torpedo's own power, which, technically, sounds much less complicated,cheaper, and easier to make, at the cost of lower range, higher operationg costs, and more potential danger.
07-07-2011, 08:02 PM
#13
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
At that size it should be relativly easy to make a torpedo that is launchable. try 1/144 
And once again, that is a great looking boat you have there. I just hope I can aquire a hull for the I-400 series, so i make make something to go out on the water too!
And once again, that is a great looking boat you have there. I just hope I can aquire a hull for the I-400 series, so i make make something to go out on the water too!
07-07-2011, 10:06 PM
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RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Ahoy Martellus,
That looks pretty cool! It's been a while since I've heard about anyone attempting to develop electric-powered torpedoes for RC combat. Most people just want to put a few bottle rockets in their boat and call it a "torpedo", which we obviously cannot allow into battle for safety reasons. Your efforts have also gone far past most electric torpedo supporters, in that you have actually built a real physical prototype rather than just a sketch. So I will do everything I can to support you.
First, a quick summary of long-ranged torpedo development so far.
The basic efforts have been split between electric powered torpedoes, and gas powered torpedoes. Electric torpedoes have a potentially longer range, but are also more expensive and complex to produce. Furthermore, a sufficiently small electric-powered torpedo is almost impossible to get moving fast enough to penetrate balsa, so some sort of warhead must be used. Designing a useable warhead has stymied electric torpedo development so far, since the torpedo must be 1) able to penetrate balsa, 2) non-pyrotechnic, and 3) safe for humans to get hit. Nobody has yet to develop an electric torpedo warhead that meets all three requirements.
Gas powered torpedoes seem to have more potential. gas power allows a torpedo to achieve sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate balsa. Not harming people is a simple matter of regulating the pressure of the gas, so that the torpedo meets the same safety standards as all other cannons in the sport. One obstacle to overcome is miniaturizing the launching gear enough to fit in a 1:144 scale submarine or cruiser. The other problem that must be overcome is how to handle surfaced launches. Gas torpedoes work fine when launched from underwater, but how do they handle when launched from above the water? If the result is hazardous to humans, then it's a no-go. I have not experimented with this, nor have many other RC combat skippers. It is unfortunate, because the idea certainly deserves more development than it has currently received. Perhaps you could be the one to make it work in combat.
A third option that many newcomers overlook is to simply use more hydrodynamic shaped projectiles from ordinary torpedo cannons. This technique is already being used in RC combat today, and it provides a significant improvement over a single 1/4" ball bearing. There are several variations of this concept in use today.
1) multiple balls in one barrel. If you've ever ridden a bicycle behind a car, you are familiar with the concept of drafting. By loading two or three 1/4" balls into a single cannon barrel, you can get the 2nd and 3rd balls to draft of the 1st, increasing their underwater penetrating power. The cannon must still pass the 2-inch foam safety test (ie not completely penetrate 2" of white insulation foam from 1 foot away), but double- or triple-shotting a cruiser's torpedo cannons can boost underwater range from 1-2 inches to 2-3 inches. This may not seem like much but in practice it's the difference between sinking a target and scratching the target's paint.
2) a .24 caliber bullet, loaded so that the blunt end hits the target. This is only allowed in a few clubs and only for submarines. It is essentially a somewhat more massive projectile with a somewhat teardrop shape. This improves underwater range for submarine torpedoes, although the exact amount of benefit is unknown. There are very few submarines in the hobby, so nobody has done any empirical testing with .24 caliber bullets. As usual, the same safety testing applies, so the improvement is for a projectile that does pass the penetration test (not too much penetration).
3) solder a brass tube to a 1/4" ball. This technique reportedly works very well, but I have not seen it used since I joined the club. The idea is that a 1/4" ball plus a short length of brass tubing makes a much more hydrodynamic shape than a 1/4" ball by itself, and thus travels through water much better. In addition, the hollow inside of the brass tube traps a bubble of air, which helps submarine-launched torpedoes skim the surface to hit the penetrable area of a ship, rather than travelling too deep. From what I've heard, a 1/4" ball plus brass tube is able to penetrate balsa through up to 12" of water, although I am somewhat dubious. I have not had the fortune to see one of these projectiles in action so I cannot say for certain how well this method works.
That looks pretty cool! It's been a while since I've heard about anyone attempting to develop electric-powered torpedoes for RC combat. Most people just want to put a few bottle rockets in their boat and call it a "torpedo", which we obviously cannot allow into battle for safety reasons. Your efforts have also gone far past most electric torpedo supporters, in that you have actually built a real physical prototype rather than just a sketch. So I will do everything I can to support you.
First, a quick summary of long-ranged torpedo development so far.
The basic efforts have been split between electric powered torpedoes, and gas powered torpedoes. Electric torpedoes have a potentially longer range, but are also more expensive and complex to produce. Furthermore, a sufficiently small electric-powered torpedo is almost impossible to get moving fast enough to penetrate balsa, so some sort of warhead must be used. Designing a useable warhead has stymied electric torpedo development so far, since the torpedo must be 1) able to penetrate balsa, 2) non-pyrotechnic, and 3) safe for humans to get hit. Nobody has yet to develop an electric torpedo warhead that meets all three requirements.
Gas powered torpedoes seem to have more potential. gas power allows a torpedo to achieve sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate balsa. Not harming people is a simple matter of regulating the pressure of the gas, so that the torpedo meets the same safety standards as all other cannons in the sport. One obstacle to overcome is miniaturizing the launching gear enough to fit in a 1:144 scale submarine or cruiser. The other problem that must be overcome is how to handle surfaced launches. Gas torpedoes work fine when launched from underwater, but how do they handle when launched from above the water? If the result is hazardous to humans, then it's a no-go. I have not experimented with this, nor have many other RC combat skippers. It is unfortunate, because the idea certainly deserves more development than it has currently received. Perhaps you could be the one to make it work in combat.
A third option that many newcomers overlook is to simply use more hydrodynamic shaped projectiles from ordinary torpedo cannons. This technique is already being used in RC combat today, and it provides a significant improvement over a single 1/4" ball bearing. There are several variations of this concept in use today.
1) multiple balls in one barrel. If you've ever ridden a bicycle behind a car, you are familiar with the concept of drafting. By loading two or three 1/4" balls into a single cannon barrel, you can get the 2nd and 3rd balls to draft of the 1st, increasing their underwater penetrating power. The cannon must still pass the 2-inch foam safety test (ie not completely penetrate 2" of white insulation foam from 1 foot away), but double- or triple-shotting a cruiser's torpedo cannons can boost underwater range from 1-2 inches to 2-3 inches. This may not seem like much but in practice it's the difference between sinking a target and scratching the target's paint.
2) a .24 caliber bullet, loaded so that the blunt end hits the target. This is only allowed in a few clubs and only for submarines. It is essentially a somewhat more massive projectile with a somewhat teardrop shape. This improves underwater range for submarine torpedoes, although the exact amount of benefit is unknown. There are very few submarines in the hobby, so nobody has done any empirical testing with .24 caliber bullets. As usual, the same safety testing applies, so the improvement is for a projectile that does pass the penetration test (not too much penetration).
3) solder a brass tube to a 1/4" ball. This technique reportedly works very well, but I have not seen it used since I joined the club. The idea is that a 1/4" ball plus a short length of brass tubing makes a much more hydrodynamic shape than a 1/4" ball by itself, and thus travels through water much better. In addition, the hollow inside of the brass tube traps a bubble of air, which helps submarine-launched torpedoes skim the surface to hit the penetrable area of a ship, rather than travelling too deep. From what I've heard, a 1/4" ball plus brass tube is able to penetrate balsa through up to 12" of water, although I am somewhat dubious. I have not had the fortune to see one of these projectiles in action so I cannot say for certain how well this method works.
07-08-2011, 07:40 AM
#17
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
Kotori,
Thanks for the support. I had noticed the abundance of sketches and lack of actual evidence of construction attempts.
As for electric: At this point i think its totally possible to create a torpedo, and even with a piston style warhead (I was toying with the idea of a spool valve gas piston inside-it would be lighter due to the gas tank prescense, and simpler than spring. Imay create a diagram later if you are interested.) But, my main concern for that project to work is not sourcing parts, nor balsa power, but weight. the more stuff you stick into this little tube, the less of the already miniscule amount of air you have to keep it from sinking to the bottom of the sea. I have already had to switch materials thrice.
Gas: I am begginning to have much more faith in this idea. They seem simple, efficient, and more reliable. The range would be questionable considering how much propellent we can store inside the torpedo, but unlike you guys I lack the gas systems and parts to test out these torpedoes. Depending on the pressure, and the output would change its safety. I think a gas torpedo would work pefect underwater; Upon breaching the surface though, the torpedo would be met with a massive change in effort required to release its propellent, Im assuming it would sputter out uselessly. I doubt it would be a rocket if you regulated the output low enough, but it does have the potential for becoming a deadly projectile if you dont. Of course with this amount of gas the flow required would probably make it impossible, and you cant exactly have high pressure in a gas tank that size. Also, you could do like the electric torps, have a relativly slow flow of gas for a longer lasting torpedo, with a spring, or gas spool valve piston warhead to penetrate.
For hydrodynamic, I think its a great solution until we can get a system working and implemented. I had read up upon these systems and quite curious about the effectiveness, espcially the .24 and the brass tube + bearing combination. UnfortunatlyI didn't see any evidence of anyone even usingthese systems, as you have stated.
Thanks for the support. I had noticed the abundance of sketches and lack of actual evidence of construction attempts.
As for electric: At this point i think its totally possible to create a torpedo, and even with a piston style warhead (I was toying with the idea of a spool valve gas piston inside-it would be lighter due to the gas tank prescense, and simpler than spring. Imay create a diagram later if you are interested.) But, my main concern for that project to work is not sourcing parts, nor balsa power, but weight. the more stuff you stick into this little tube, the less of the already miniscule amount of air you have to keep it from sinking to the bottom of the sea. I have already had to switch materials thrice.
Gas: I am begginning to have much more faith in this idea. They seem simple, efficient, and more reliable. The range would be questionable considering how much propellent we can store inside the torpedo, but unlike you guys I lack the gas systems and parts to test out these torpedoes. Depending on the pressure, and the output would change its safety. I think a gas torpedo would work pefect underwater; Upon breaching the surface though, the torpedo would be met with a massive change in effort required to release its propellent, Im assuming it would sputter out uselessly. I doubt it would be a rocket if you regulated the output low enough, but it does have the potential for becoming a deadly projectile if you dont. Of course with this amount of gas the flow required would probably make it impossible, and you cant exactly have high pressure in a gas tank that size. Also, you could do like the electric torps, have a relativly slow flow of gas for a longer lasting torpedo, with a spring, or gas spool valve piston warhead to penetrate.
For hydrodynamic, I think its a great solution until we can get a system working and implemented. I had read up upon these systems and quite curious about the effectiveness, espcially the .24 and the brass tube + bearing combination. UnfortunatlyI didn't see any evidence of anyone even usingthese systems, as you have stated.
07-09-2011, 12:39 PM
#18
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
After switching to a pen tube for a housing, i can get the torp to float and the propeller seems to work quite well too. I tried using hearing aid batteries, but even after registering over 4v on a voltmeter it fails to power the 3v pager motor. I need to find a solution.
07-14-2011, 08:01 AM
#19
RE: Torpedo-basic idea
3 1.4v hearing aid batteries do work, i was just getting bad connections. The torpedo can hold up the weight of up to 3, maybe more if I change out a temporary brass piece im using to plug the front of the torpedo. Its getting quite annoying though, trying to get a consistent electrical connection with them.
07-23-2011, 03:56 PM
#20
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RE: Torpedo-basic idea
A thought occurs to me.
Gas for the power source but not just used as a rocket-type thruster.
Turbine.
Run the gas through a minisculeturbine to drive a tiny prop. Then exhaust the gas through the (hollow) propshaft.
Put a slight twist on the fins to give the torpedo a bit of stability when it's running.
Potentially twice the thrust for the same amount of gas.
BTW, I have no idea how you could acheive this, it's just an idea.
Gas for the power source but not just used as a rocket-type thruster.
Turbine.
Run the gas through a minisculeturbine to drive a tiny prop. Then exhaust the gas through the (hollow) propshaft.
Put a slight twist on the fins to give the torpedo a bit of stability when it's running.
Potentially twice the thrust for the same amount of gas.
BTW, I have no idea how you could acheive this, it's just an idea.
08-06-2011, 08:22 AM
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RE: Torpedo-basic idea
ORIGINAL: kotori
Electric torpedoes have a potentially longer range, but are also more expensive and complex to produce. Furthermore, a sufficiently small electric-powered torpedo is almost impossible to get moving fast enough to penetrate balsa, so some sort of warhead must be used.
Electric torpedoes have a potentially longer range, but are also more expensive and complex to produce. Furthermore, a sufficiently small electric-powered torpedo is almost impossible to get moving fast enough to penetrate balsa, so some sort of warhead must be used.
Iskandar
