The SWRA web site Model Warbird Racing is up, but there is no contact info, rules info, or 2002 schedule on the site.

If anyone has any info about the SWRA, please contact me.

SWRA ????

I understood as of last year there were many internal problems/battles going on.

Locally we have dropped all SWRA scheduled events, for lack of interest and direction in favor of rules similar to SWRA, but have eliminated the scale judging criteria.

I might be able to shed a little light on the SWRA situation. I've been an active member and racer for the last 10 years and served on the executive board for 6 years (including a short stint as president before I resigned).

There are a number of different issues that have plagued the organization for the last year or so including class breakout times, muffler requirements, and noise limits. Internal strife has it's price and event participation has suffered as a result. The latest (and probably fatal) blow came from the AMA in the form of a rule change for 2-pole racing requiring that the course be moved out by a considerable distance. One of the few remaining clubs willing or able to host SWRA races (Speedworld) has cancelled its fall race because of this latest rule change. Rumor has it that the TIMPA-based group will "throw in the towel" if their January race is a bust. If that happens I don't see the SWRA sticking around for much longer.

My family and I have enjoyed this racing venue since 1991. I've raced Quickie, Formula One, Quarter Midget, and FAI but find that none have the character or diversity of SWRA races. Our whole family (including wife and both kids) have raced at one time or another. My 10-year-old son just moved up the Gold class and has proven to be quite competitive (he placed 5th his first time out and was only a second or two above fast time and class breakout). Too bad that it was probably his last race.........

I firmly believe that the format is quite workable; it just needs to be tweaked to be more in line with present technology. When I first started racing in 1991 a two-minute time was hard to beat. With advances in pilot skill, engine technology (Nelson and YS), and decent ARF kits it is now relatively easy to cruise in the 1:40-range with basically off-the-shelf equipment. Those flying purpose-built aircraft have posted times in the low 1:20's. Here's the problem: 1:38 will get you disqualified. Do it "too often" (whatever that means) and they warn that you'll be sent home for "unsportsmanlike conduct".

What needs to happen is a serious revision to the wing area table. Current rules allow a .40 2-stroke (any configuration, any modifications, no limit on nitro) on a 400 square-inch wing. (Keep in mind that AMA-rulebook events all require more wing area, stock engines, specified configurations, and limit nitro content to 15%). The rules governing 4-strokes are even more out of wack: they allow a 1.20 on only 550 square inches. One recent purpose-built 4-stroker cruised in the low 1:20s with ease.

Some (myself included) feel that the Gold breakout rule was an an attempt to regulate performance (under the guise of "safety") without really saying so. The muffler rule was completely ineffective (the 2-strokes were the noisy ones) and the noise limit was a retaliatory response to removing the 4-stroke muffler requirement. Those clinging to these rules for the most part would not be competitive without them. At this point all of the serious racers have been "run off" (which I believe was the original intent, anyway).

For a while they required mufflers for 4-strokes (while the muffled and tuned-piped Nelsons went unchecked). Then some clubs and/or CDs imposed noise limits when in most cases the clubs didn't need or require them for other events (in other words, they didn't have a "noise problem"). Racers grew tired of not knowing what was going to be "legal" from race to race and just quit coming. The SWRA has now decided to "get out of the muffler business" and let the individual clubs decide if/what/how a specified noise limit is to be enforced. Now I think it's too late for recovery.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Tony Pacini

Thanks for that info Tony. I looked at the site and saw that John Gonzales appears to be the current president. There was no email address for him.

I went ahead and added the new link you sent me to PylonWorld.

The rules are pretty complicated. I'm especially surprised at the lack of fuel restrictions.

The potential difference in sizes of aircraft is also unusual.

But it is nice to actually be able to read the rules. So thanks for responding and sending the web address.

Please let other people know this forum is here for the discussion of scale racing.

What club or clubs are you racing at? Is there a web site that has your local info on it?

The potential size difference may seem a bit strange but it seems to work. I've raced everything from a Nelson .40 powered NE-1 (cub!) (400 square inches) to a Top Flite Gold Edition P-47 with a YS 1.20 (lots of wing area). Depending on engine mods and fuel they actually can compete in the same class. I've seen that P-47 and a twin YS 1.20-powered Tigercat both show 160 mph on a radar gun and turn 1:30 on the course. The NE-1 (cub) actually posted faster course times (low 1:20s) but I don't believe it was actually going as fast (just turned a lot better).

Fuel can vary: most 2-strokers don't stray much above 40% nitro while the 4-stroke crowd can tip the can at 80% (!). Needless to say the mean time between failures for the latter can be measured in heats (sometimes only one or two if you miss the needle). My buddy's got the high-nitro 4-stroke thing figured out but most people don't care to go that route (a YS meltdown can be costly). Verano would be horrified if he knew what has been done with his engines...........

The nice thing about this event is that it can appeal to all modelers; half of your score is based on appearance, the other half on race points. With 3 classes of racing (Bronze, Silver, and Gold) there is a potential place for everyone. The static score (particularly the outline) helps temper the racing portion of the event. A big fat scale airplane won't go as fast as a slimmed-down racer (generally) and all those race points won't do you much good without a decent static score. Point of interest: rarely does the fastest aircraft win the event.

Some show up with an out-of-the-box glue-gun ARF (the World P-51 Mustang is popular) while some will go to the extremes of a beautifully painted finish and cycling gear doors. Some go just to have fun, some to race, some to be the class of the field. Few can do all three. The sad part about this event is that it has gravitated more toward mediocrity than toward perfection. In other racing venues the fastest guy with the best looking airplane is what you hope to become. In SWRA racing that type of behavior is discouraged and even frowned upon.

People used to travel from as far as St. Louis and Sacramento to come to our races.........now most won't even drive across town.

The SWRA has posted a new web site until a new domain name can be obtained. There will be new changes as things are update and corrected

Please use http:\\pages.prodigy.net\wclays

I hope you find this helpful

The Tucson Jan SWRA warbird race was great and plans on holding one again in April. There will be a SWRA race in El Paso TX in Feb.

Through the help of the AMA and the Local District X AVP a Wavier was obtained and event continued with great success.

The AMA rule changes were for all plyon racing and each CD will have to get with their District AVP for more information.

Clay Sherrow CD

I've updated the link for the SWRA on PylonWorld ... Tony sent it to me. Thanks for putting it here also.

What did the AMA do to 2 pole pylon distances? ... I haven't gotten my rulebook yet

It has always been there. It is on page 101 of the 99-01 rule book. It places 2 pole race course is as follows

From the pilots station to the Course poles it is 450 ft if you use larger than 40 size motors.

Non necessary workers (timers card flippers etc) will be placed another 100 ft behind the pilots

Spectators will be another 225 ft more back. Many fields will have a problem with this. The AMA passed a motion to allow their Local AVP District Presidents to obtain a wavier, to allow changes.

Hope this helps

If you need more you can email me personally

Clay

Thought I'd bump this to the top.

How was the December 13-15 race? Good turn out? (I think it was in El Paso)

Myself and a buddy are planning to attend the race in Tucson in January, our first.

The December race was at SpeedWorld in Phoenix. The turnout is what I consider typical nowadays. The class split turned out to be very good. 7 Bronze, 8 Silver and 8 Gold. So all classes had a 4-planes-per-heat matrix.

I flew a plane in Silver that I had not raced before. It was too fast for Silver. A couple of guys from Sun Valley Fliers in Phoenix showed up on Saturday to just race in Silver (no static judging). I like to race so I duked it out with them. I broke out 5 of 7 heats but had a blast.

Don’t know if I will make the Tucson race in Jan. If I do, I will fly in Gold.

I can't believe they have a break out time for the gold class, is there a reason for this?

I have done some Q500 racing but my buddy has no racing experience, but he is a good pilot.

I'm not too interested in the scale judging part of it, just want to race. I have a Dago Red, some color photos and three view.

Are the judges pretty nit picky?

Be prepared; you're likely to hear several reasons supporting the existence of the Gold-class breakout. This goes back several years and the valid answer now wasn't a valid one then.

1. A fatality at an SWRA event some years ago triggered some changes to the event and I believe the Gold-breakout was one of them. Pulling workers off the course (out of the pylon cages) was one of the smarter moves and arguably could have prevented the incident.

2. I've been told different stories by different people (some of them on the SWRA board during the time of and after the accident). Some say they wanted to "do something" in the interest of safety and the breakout was a solution that wouldn't require equipment (airframe/engine) changes. It was a seemingly easy way to fix the perceived safety problem.

3. You'll never find a top-of-the-heap Gold pilot who supports the breakout. Those who insist on keeping it probably wouldn't be competitive without it. Many of the breakout supporters can now effectively compete in the class because the fast guys quit showing up altogether (and that seems to sit pretty well with the current administration). Recent Sacramento race (no scale judging and 1:30 breakout) drew nearly 50 entries. Average SWRA race WITH scale judging and 1:38 breakout draws half that if they're lucky. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....

4. Regardless of what you hear the CURRENT reason for the breakout is that the AMA won't issue an event sanction/endorsement unless the club can build the course in accordance with current AMA rules governing 2-pole racing for engines over .40 CID. Most clubs don't have the space to set up the course per these guidelines so it's up to the district VP to grant a per-event "waiver" allowing the course to be placed closer to the flightline and spectators. Our current District X VP will issue said waiver but requires Gold breakout. Interestingly enough the same VP allowed a 1:30 breakout for a recent race in Sacramento but somehow the local group opted for the more popular 1:38 (go figure!). For what it's worth our current VP also served as SWRA President several years ago.

Q500 racing probably won't give you much of an edge since you're used to flying inside of a 3-pole course and SWRA flies outside an offset 2-pole course. It's pretty wierd. I've flown more SWRA than 3-pole and find the 2-pole stuff easier.

If you hope to trophy the scale judging is important; your scale score counts just as much as your racing score. The judges are reasonable but your airplane better match your documentation (outline, color and markings) and they also look at craftsmanship.

You've probably figured out that I don't support the Gold breakout (it's no secret.......just ask anybody within the organization). I attended the December race because it was close and my 11-year-old son wanted to race in the Gold class. Even he can run low 1:40's and high 1:30's. I've run low 1:20's myself and the current event structure doesn't offer much of a challenge for me. I miss the good old days.

One thing to remember: in rulebook events like Q500 most people aspire to be the fastest. In SWRA racing they look for a way to run you off if you beat them.

Good luck! It's a lot of fun until you run up against local politics.

Tony Pacini

>> Are the judges pretty nit picky?

Doesn’t matter much. If you have one or more nit picky judges, it reduces the scores, but it always works out that the roaches have to do much better at racing.
Race point values are adjusted so if you get first place in all heats (5 min, 6 max), you get 100 points. The max scale score is 100.
When you get your scale score sheets, immediately put them in the bottom of a birdcage. You can go bonkers trying to read the details and alter your plane, hoping to improve your score. The judges at the next race will most likely not be the same people and your score can go down because of the changes you made. Stand-off scale judging is not a science. Example: I know a guy who had thin panel lines and the judge did not see them. He redid them wider and got knocked for thick panel lines.

>>I'm not too interested in the scale judging part of it, just want to race. I have a Dago Red, some color photos and three view.

You are not alone. I think the way SWRA scale judging is done is the biggest impediment to getting new people. It shouldn’t take a half day and be half your final score. I think is should be used for breaking race point ties and only those planes tied should be judged. IMO, there are a bunch of people who just want to get a warbird ARF and race.

The day something isn't controversial in racing will certainly be the day

I personally think the scale judging is a bit much. I mean, I see racers as somewhat "disposable" because they generally have a high attrition rate as compared to other forms of competition, so it's a lot of work to put into a plane that may or may not last a long time. That doesn't mean that a plane shouldn't be scale. I just feel that when it comes down to panel lines, colors of wheel wells, etc that it's much to ask for at anything but a scale contest. I know a friend that lost a ton of points because his wheel wells weren't zinc chromate. However, if one doesn't necessarily do scale judging, how do they police racing and scale airframes? This is evident from most of the non-scale judging races where the planes are essentially stretched beyond belief and one has to squint to see the appropriate outline.

The pylon breakout time has me baffled myself. My understanding is that the AMA pylon rules were written with the intent of being focused on the AMA rulebook events (QM,quickee,etc) and when the engine displacement/pylon distance guidelines were set up, they were based on an estimation of increase in weight, size, motors,etc. However, take this for example - We have a T-34 race series that uses OS .46 motors. The airplanes range in speed of about 85-95mph tops. It's a popular class. However, since the motors are above .40 cu/in as described in the rulebook, we have to get a waiver for the event, even though the models are 60+ mph slower than quickees. When it comes to our club's local unlimited class, there was no breakout time last year per the waiver I managed to get in hand. None of the planes present went over 150mph. 2003 may be different as I have to resubmit for a pylon waiver for the club. However, our club may be different because of the pylon to specator distance. Under our day to day conditions, the flight line is 190 feet away from the pit area. The pylons are about 475 from the spectators. Pylon judges are about 375 feet back from the pylons.

I like to go fast like Tony. It certainly doesn't make it fun when the rules hamper the speeds of the event.

Most of the ARF's are pretty good as far as outlines and do a good job at keeping things fair. The problem that I have with a lot of ARF's is that they cannot necessarily take the stresses of the gold class (or above 120-130mph) when stock. People need to be aware of the plane's limits and properly modify it if they wish to compete at higher speeds.

Michael

I appreciate the great responses.

I do remember hearing about that fatality some years ago. I had forgotten it was at an SWRA event.

I have done one 2-pole Q500 race so I know the drill. I have never started a race using a pace plane however, any advice there?

What worries me about 2-pole is someone getting a little off course and getting in a head on situation.

Subjective judging does not thrill me, thats why I don't fly pattern.

Does the host club have hard hats available or do we need to get our own?

I have read thru the AMA pylon rules many times and I'm familiar with the set back requirements, but don't recall anything about limiting speed. If it were up to me I'd time all the planes individually thru several heats, then take the total number of entries and divide by three to get the three classes. I believe thats how Reno does it. My caller will have a stop watch and I can always throttle back.

Since this will be my first event, I will go with an open mind and enjoy myself. If I'm happy, I'll be back.

Are there grumbles about static judging? Seems kinda odd to me that a plane could win or lose a race that way. I guess it could be a Major Bummer for the Racer who "Angers" the judge during static judging.

I have to agree with PJ tankpilot >>> there are a bunch of people who just want to get a warbird ARF and race.<<<

I would think there would be more paticipants if it was "run whatcha brung straight heads up Racing" in the 3 classes with the hosting club providing the fuel and "He or She" with the best thumbs on the sticks that crosses the finish line the best,,, WINS

my 5 cents worth

BV

>> I have never started a race using a pace plane however, any advice there?

It is your callers job to get you lined up with the pace plane. I find it easier to get up quickly and claim a position above the pace plane rather than scramble to get into position later. The pace plane will usually fly low, so stay up. If you take out the pace plane, you buy it. I know a guy who has taken out the pace plane twice in exactly the same way.

>>Does the host club have hard hats available or do we need to get our own?

Some do, some don’t. Better call CD. Better yet, get two. All racing should require them.

>> My caller will have a stop watch and I can always throttle back.

You are not supposed to use any timing devices at the line. Your caller can count seconds for a few laps to get an idea. Minimum lap times: Gold=10, Silver=13, Bronze=16. Speed tactics are a big part of SWRA racing. A lot happens on the last lap.

A common mistake made by new pilots is to turn inside the pylons when they have finished the race. They get a cut because the pylon judges have no way to know who has finished the race. When you are done, get up above the course, circle and go past both pylons as you wait for the race to complete.

>>I know a guy who has taken out the pace plane twice in exactly the same way.

Bummer, what do they use for a pace plane? Is it reasonably fast?
Or do you have to fly at half throttle so as not to pass it.

We do have hard hats, just one more thing to pack.


>>You are not supposed to use any timing devices at the line.

unless its in the written rules............

Another note:

Some of the non-SWRA events use a countdown clock to start the race. It consists of an audible countdown from like 20 seconds, and possibly some sort of start clock. Obviously one can't be past the start/finish line before zero. Most often everyone flys a normal, high course until about 10-15 seconds before the clock is up. They'll go up high and dive to the start from around pylon 2. Rules usually state that one can't do a loop or quick turnaround if they are going to cut the start. If they do, they have to swing all the way back around the second pylon.

Michael

>>Bummer, what do they use for a pace plane? Is it reasonably fast?

A commonly used pace plane is a 424 Q-500, about the speed of a Silver class plane.
The Gold pilots are the ones who usually have problems with the speed difference.
Be careful, if you are ahead of the pace plane when it crosses the start line, you get a big goose egg. Doing a loop is against the rules.

If you want to see some pictures of planes and people you will be flying with, click on

Warbird Racing

Guys, I'm gonna wade in here with my opinions, after giving it a lot of thought during the last year or so. My son and I were regular competitors for several years, and consistently drove over 10 hours each way to race 3 or 4 times a year until the internal politics took all the fun out of it for us. Primarily, as Tony said, the nay-sayers started tinkering with the rules (breakouts, mufflers, etc) until it became problematic whether we could race or not after driving those distances. We never could figure the rationale for the erratic rules game the CD's were playing under the guise of noise control (beating up the 4 strokes when the nitro piped 2 strokes and stock Nelsons were far, FAR, noiser) and hitting the "blatent" breakouts with punitive zeros (I really think it became a personality thing with the SWRA board). For what it's worth, my son and I almost always placed very high in the classes we ran in, but we also did our homework, came prepared, and were serious about the racing. We were willing to spend the time and money to compete, knowing we were always challenged, and a win agianst the "big guys" REALLY meant something to us. After the CD's "dumbed" it down to the lowest common denominator (for those who either didn't want to do their homework, or work at building a competitive racer), the challenge went away, and so did the competition. That's when we said the cost no longer justified the time and effort we had to make to race so far away, and stopped racing. I mean, good grief, who wants to get a trophy just for showing up with no challenge??? At that point, we dropped out, and started pursuing other avenues that would give us the challenge we wanted.

You want to fix what's wrong with SWRA??? Bring back the challenge: 1. do away with the stupid, meaningless muffler rule - picking a DB limit that's realistic for racing is meaningless- look at real racing (Indy 500, drag racing, full scale RENO, etc) - how many of them have mandatory noise limits - GET REAL!! RACING IS NOISY!!!!!!!! It comes with the territory!!!!! DEAL WITH IT!!!! 2. Get away from the blatent breakout punitive nonsense - let the guys go as fast as they want - just give them a zero for the breakouts - no problem - no hassle, no score - no win!!,; 3. encourage and promote better scale building (ie: punish the roaches with low scores and realistically reward the outstanding scale birds by doing realistic judge training); 4. tweak the wing area/displacement rules to give the 2 cyc a better chance agianst the big 4 strokes; and lastly, put the competition (challenge) back into the racing instead of punishing the hard chargers!! Put the emphasis back on the Gold class by encouraging innovation instead of punishing the serious competitors with stupid rules that are meaningless anyway.

For those of you who ***** about the static judging, remember the base purpose of SWRA - to duplicate RENO style pylon racing. If all you want to do is to grab a cheap airplane, stick a big engine on it and go race, then go with the quikees or "run what you brung" type racing. That's NOT the intent of SWRA. IMHO, the static judging kept the scale interest in the event (and the participants), and appealed to the spectators. Doing away with the static judging always ends up with a bunch of "what the H*** is that thing?" type racers. Who wants to compete with, and watch that??? You're afraid to lose a scale bird with a mid-air??? Well, think of the $ the Indy cars have invested to do what they do - do you think they like losing a multi-million $ car in a crash? If you can't stand losing a scale bird, maybe scale racing really isn't for you, so don't do it; but at least, don't dumb it down for those of us who are willing to make the sacrifice!!

I'd STILL like to race, but want to have head to head competitive battles with my peers, without stupid, meaningless rules that do nothing but satisfy power trips of the CD's being shoved down my throat at each race. I think if the wing area/displacement rules were tweaked realistically, the noise rules (ineffective anyway) were dropped, the blatent breakout rule was discarded, the static judges were better trained at each event, and the event were allowed to progress upward, instead of "dumbing it down" to the lowest common denominator, it might, just MIGHT flourish again. Once the challenge and excitement is brought back, the racers might come back, too. Think about how it was before the CD's and rulemakers started tinkering with it...

FWIW, these are my thoughts, and that's why I believe the serious competitors dropped out. Bring back the challenge, do away with the silly, stupid, meaningless rules, and you just might resurrect the SWRA Mini-Reno racing scene once again.

Regards, Les Morrow

I attended the last race in Tucson in January, it was my first. Just for the record I had a really good time and met a great bunch of guys and I'm planning to attend more events.

All the planes had mufflers, I didn't see any tuned pipes, but their site is so far from anything that noise shouldn't be an issue. As far as I could tell all the planes were ARF's except for two of them. I was a little surprised at some of the high static scores a few planes received. But now I know what to do to my plane to get more static points. To be honest I don't care much for that part of it and just prefer to race.
Everyone seemed pleased with the three judges at this event though.

I saw no evidence of "politics", and heard no complaints from anyone. I got the impression that they realized there were some problems in the past and are trying to change things.

As far as the break out times, this is done to satisfy the AMA so they can get a sanction for the event. The AMA has taken an "anti-racing" stance lately making it harder and harder for clubs to meet all the requirements to put on a race. Atleast this was the impression I got from the CD.

All that being said, there were a couple things I didn't like. The first was that you can take off in either direction. Several times a guy would take off headed toward the planes already up and circling the course. A little un-nerving to me.
The other thing was I don't think they mixed up the heats enough so everyone flew against everyone else in their class. There were no frequency conflicts to deal with.

All in all it was a fun event and like I said above I will attend more of them. Jetjockey, I hope you reconsider your position and come back.

Painless:
I don't believe the AMA has an anti racing attitude. They just won't issue a sanction unless you meet the rule book course requirements. These requirements are not new and haven't changed. My understanding is most CD's are getting waivers to move the pilots closer to the course which is the reason AMA is demanding the breakout times. Actually the AMA is anything but anti racing. They have spent a ton of money over the years coming up with rules and regulations that satisfy the insurance companies. Without the AMA there would probably be no site insurance and therefore no racing.



Barry

Painless:

Glad you had a good time and will continue attending events. Make sure you catch the race in Phoenix in October.

Just a small history lesson about your comments:

>>but their site is so far from anything that noise shouldn't be an issue.

How true, but that site was the first one to enforce noise limits. Two guys showed up with Nelson powered planes and were told they could not fly them because they would be too noisy. This was before the planes were measured by a DB meter. The two guys packed up their stuff and left for a 7 hour return trip home and I believe have never attended a SWRA race since.

>>I saw no evidence of "politics", and heard no complaints from anyone.

That is good but it is important to note that you also did not see 40+ pilots entered, which used to be common for a Tucson or Phoenix race. I would guess the race drew 20+ pilots. There 20+ missing. IMO, to get them back is not a simple a rules tweak.