Big slow floater for 60 PAW diesel that can swing a 18" prop
04-25-2016, 07:02 PM
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Big slow floater for 60 PAW diesel that can swing a 18" prop
I bought a Supertigre .61 with andieselmhead from Davis diesels. I was so intrigued with the little engine that I bought a PAW .060 and a .60 from Eric Clutton. I want to built a couple of slow, old school floaters for the PAWs. Maybe a db Mighty Baernstormer for the 60 and a mini mighty barnstormer for the .o60. Any ideas for LANs out there? I thought about a couple lazy bees, but they have that flying flea tuck under when beating on it.
thanks you guys!
thanks you guys!
04-30-2016, 07:17 PM
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I do have an eight foot Telemaster. They are nice planes. But I was looking to get away from the boxy look with a plans build. I like the look of the Mighty barnstormer and the Miss Texas, but I don't know if they qualify as floaters. I've been perusing OuterZone and Areofred looking for designs.
05-03-2016, 07:53 AM
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I replied on this topic over on "that other place" already. But one that comes to mind from seeing this again is a model which is on my "must build" list. It's the Comet Golden Eagle. You want shapely and curvy? This one has it in spades! ! ! !
For your big PAW you will want to double the size. And that will mean you need to increase the number of wing ribs to best support the covering and make it look right. You'll likely also want to up the number of uprights and cross pieces in the fuselage. In particular around the landing gear mounting locations you'll want to add diagonal uprights and plywood gusseting to extend the landing gear shock loads out to more of the structure so it spreads the load out.
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=4750
For your big PAW you will want to double the size. And that will mean you need to increase the number of wing ribs to best support the covering and make it look right. You'll likely also want to up the number of uprights and cross pieces in the fuselage. In particular around the landing gear mounting locations you'll want to add diagonal uprights and plywood gusseting to extend the landing gear shock loads out to more of the structure so it spreads the load out.
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=4750
05-03-2016, 09:24 PM
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"... one that comes to mind from seeing this again is a model which is on my "must build" list. It's the Comet Golden Eagle. You want shapely and curvy? This one has it in spades!"
Yes! What a beauty! It captures sporty, classy, curvy and style. Just downloaded the plans. Gonna see if I can tile print it to about 80". I'll keep a Kadet Senior in mind for fuse angles and spacing as I work through this pretty Comet's fuse. Do you know anyone who has super sized this? I think ll try it as a rudder/elevator/throttle.
Any other ideas?
Yes! What a beauty! It captures sporty, classy, curvy and style. Just downloaded the plans. Gonna see if I can tile print it to about 80". I'll keep a Kadet Senior in mind for fuse angles and spacing as I work through this pretty Comet's fuse. Do you know anyone who has super sized this? I think ll try it as a rudder/elevator/throttle.
Any other ideas?
05-04-2016, 08:36 AM
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80 inch span is going to be too small for that engine. If you're at all good with light building then it'll produce that situation where even at idle the model won't want to glide down. Go a full double size and 90 inch span with confidence.
That big blue Flamingo in the other thread you ran over at RCG? It is powered with an old loop bypass mild power output OS.35. And at 5.5lbs it still goes uphill at around a 35 degree angle at full power. And at idle while it descends in the glide if I put in two clicks of throttle stick it starts a very slight climb. And that one is 84 inch span. If it had your big PAW in it even at idle it would still want to climb.
I've only ever seen one picture years ago of the original size model that someone built and flew in the SAM 1/2A Texaco event. It's not a common design. There's a lot of building in it which might be why it's rarely seen. But for anyone that enjoys their bench time as much as they do their flying time it's a winner.
With doubling the size extra care will be needed in the tail to avoid the fin being too weak to withstand the torsional loads of the stabilizer wobbling around. What's shown on the plan is fine for the small one but more than just simply scaling it up will be needed for a big one. If you decide this is THE design for you then I'd be happy to work out some suggestions for ensuring that the whole tail area is up to the task but still comes out properly light like an old timer should be.
Don't discount this. I've both seen and built my share of T tails and both seen and had them break from what should not have bothered them. The last two I did I put more thought and technique into them and both have proven to be nicely rugged and long lived while still quite light for what they are.
That big blue Flamingo in the other thread you ran over at RCG? It is powered with an old loop bypass mild power output OS.35. And at 5.5lbs it still goes uphill at around a 35 degree angle at full power. And at idle while it descends in the glide if I put in two clicks of throttle stick it starts a very slight climb. And that one is 84 inch span. If it had your big PAW in it even at idle it would still want to climb.
I've only ever seen one picture years ago of the original size model that someone built and flew in the SAM 1/2A Texaco event. It's not a common design. There's a lot of building in it which might be why it's rarely seen. But for anyone that enjoys their bench time as much as they do their flying time it's a winner.
With doubling the size extra care will be needed in the tail to avoid the fin being too weak to withstand the torsional loads of the stabilizer wobbling around. What's shown on the plan is fine for the small one but more than just simply scaling it up will be needed for a big one. If you decide this is THE design for you then I'd be happy to work out some suggestions for ensuring that the whole tail area is up to the task but still comes out properly light like an old timer should be.
Don't discount this. I've both seen and built my share of T tails and both seen and had them break from what should not have bothered them. The last two I did I put more thought and technique into them and both have proven to be nicely rugged and long lived while still quite light for what they are.
05-04-2016, 03:50 PM
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I'll accept your help and take your advice to go double size. I could use the help with the tail design, both for strength and elevator and rudder/vertical stab area. It looks a little small to my untrained eye. Your thoughts on that? The local hobby store just told me about an architects supply house that can scale the plans for me without having to resort to tile printing. At ten bucks a sheet, thats a bargain, even if all it provides is correctly sized outlines of formers and ribs. I have a pretty well equipped shop, and can resaw spruce, fir, and poplar. Also, the nearest hobby store owner (60 miles away) is a cabinet shop as well, and has a great selection of plywoods.
An airplane this pretty will have to be fabric covered. The last fabric work I did was on my full scale Sport Hornet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_L...ircraft_Hornet
I put a Jabiru 2200 on it. I'm almost done with a Jabiru 3300 full scratchbuilt Sonex.
I'd like to do a bit of model work again before I dive into my next full scale, an Acrolight 1C. I'm going to try a VW rear drive on the Acrolite. Hand propping, I should be able to get the weight down to acceptable ranges. Interesting enough, the vendor I am getting the PAW diesels from is Eric Clutton, the designer of the FRED homebuilt. Although I had known of his design for years in the homebuilt airplane arena, I never knew his identity as "Dr. Diesel" in the modeling world until I ordered this motor!
thank you for the time and interest in this project.
An airplane this pretty will have to be fabric covered. The last fabric work I did was on my full scale Sport Hornet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_L...ircraft_Hornet
I put a Jabiru 2200 on it. I'm almost done with a Jabiru 3300 full scratchbuilt Sonex.
I'd like to do a bit of model work again before I dive into my next full scale, an Acrolight 1C. I'm going to try a VW rear drive on the Acrolite. Hand propping, I should be able to get the weight down to acceptable ranges. Interesting enough, the vendor I am getting the PAW diesels from is Eric Clutton, the designer of the FRED homebuilt. Although I had known of his design for years in the homebuilt airplane arena, I never knew his identity as "Dr. Diesel" in the modeling world until I ordered this motor!
thank you for the time and interest in this project.
05-04-2016, 05:18 PM
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That's perfect. You'll most certainly want to use some nice pine or other supple yet strong woods for the main longerons. And even doing the stringers from suitable pine or bass would not be a bad option to better withstand the handling forces. Nothing more annoying than a busted stringer from slightly too much lifting pressure.
Who knows. I've got an old open rocker OS.75 four stroke that I've yet to put into a model. Perhaps it's time for me to build the darn thing and we'll end up doing them together.
The last little while I've been running across some wonderfully clear pine at Home Despot that has no runout to the naked eye and is up around 18 to 20 groth rings per inch. Primo stuff in other words. I've bought about 8 or 9 pieces of it that are between 6 and 8 feet long. Originally it was just to make spars for regular size models and to use for fuselage stock for my free flight catapult launch gliders. But I may have to reduce the stock if I join you in this build.
Who knows. I've got an old open rocker OS.75 four stroke that I've yet to put into a model. Perhaps it's time for me to build the darn thing and we'll end up doing them together.
The last little while I've been running across some wonderfully clear pine at Home Despot that has no runout to the naked eye and is up around 18 to 20 groth rings per inch. Primo stuff in other words. I've bought about 8 or 9 pieces of it that are between 6 and 8 feet long. Originally it was just to make spars for regular size models and to use for fuselage stock for my free flight catapult launch gliders. But I may have to reduce the stock if I join you in this build.
05-04-2016, 06:32 PM
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One of the full scale airplanes on my short list, and one that almost got the nod over the Acrolite is the TEAM Airbike. (BTW, all of the full scale TEAM Minimax variants plans are free on TEAM's website if you are interested in a full scale all wood airplane) I Was researching less costly locally available alternatives to Stika Spruce and found this report by NASA written back when they were NACA:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...9930091423.pdf
It shows that yellow poplar is a near match for Stitka in density, strength in compression and tension, flexibility, fatigue resistance, and crushability! It can be hand selected in lengths up to ten feet with rings and runout compatible with aircraft use. Since I can get it locally, I was going to use it for building the ribs. The Acrolite won out mostly because I have a few dozen sheets of appropriately sized aluminum sheets and angles. But it is something to keep in mind when cruising the aisles of Home Depot!
I just received a pile of magnets in the mail for my new building board. I've bent two 90 degree returns in a 1/16 inch 3' X 6' steel sheet to stiffen it, and have screwed it to the top of an old but solid drafting table a neighbor gave me. I'm completely bi-polar and ADHD, and can't sit still long enough to watch tv with the family. So I always have a project going in the living room so I can be with the family. I cut out all of the sheet aluminum like rib and fuselage formers for the sonex sitting on the couch while everybody else watched tv. I just transferred all of the aluminum plate and sheet drawings on the Acrolite to Mylar, and cut them all out, to be ready to transfer to aluminum when I start.
It it would be fun to collaborate on this project. What do you think about silk as a covering for a big one like this? Will it hold up to the diesel?
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...9930091423.pdf
It shows that yellow poplar is a near match for Stitka in density, strength in compression and tension, flexibility, fatigue resistance, and crushability! It can be hand selected in lengths up to ten feet with rings and runout compatible with aircraft use. Since I can get it locally, I was going to use it for building the ribs. The Acrolite won out mostly because I have a few dozen sheets of appropriately sized aluminum sheets and angles. But it is something to keep in mind when cruising the aisles of Home Depot!
I just received a pile of magnets in the mail for my new building board. I've bent two 90 degree returns in a 1/16 inch 3' X 6' steel sheet to stiffen it, and have screwed it to the top of an old but solid drafting table a neighbor gave me. I'm completely bi-polar and ADHD, and can't sit still long enough to watch tv with the family. So I always have a project going in the living room so I can be with the family. I cut out all of the sheet aluminum like rib and fuselage formers for the sonex sitting on the couch while everybody else watched tv. I just transferred all of the aluminum plate and sheet drawings on the Acrolite to Mylar, and cut them all out, to be ready to transfer to aluminum when I start.
It it would be fun to collaborate on this project. What do you think about silk as a covering for a big one like this? Will it hold up to the diesel?
05-04-2016, 10:28 PM
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Silk would be fine at first. But as a buddy that flew lots of gas powered old timers for many years found out silk tends to rot in the sunlight when finished in clear dope. We were flying at the same meets and at the time the contest schedule was pretty much one meet a month for 9 months. Around year four of this the silk started punching through a bit too easily when handling it or from stuff on the ground which it used to laugh off. By year 5 careful handling when moving the models around was required to avoid popping holes in the silk.
So while it's wonderful to use and looks fantastic when clear doped for a model I expect to own for many years and fly frequently I just can't see using it.
Of course we COULD do what they did with linen back in the early days. It was learned during WW I that silver dope cut the UV rays of the sun and prevented the linen from rotting and ripping off the airframe in a dive. But for OUR use what's the point of using such a lovely looking covering and then laying silver dope all over it?
The synthetic materials tend to not be quite as translucent as the silk. But they don't have this same degree of sensitivity to UV exposure as the silk. So if you can locate some super light synthetic that is comparable to silk for looks that might work out better.
I'll keep my eyes open for that yellow poplar. But it appears that it's more an eastern wood. The lumberyards tend to sell what they can obtain locally.
The good news is that our western pine is far more like sitka spruce than the eastern pine is. So I won't feel too bad if I can't find the yellow pine as long as I can keep finding such nice examples of western pine with this same density of growth rings.
So while it's wonderful to use and looks fantastic when clear doped for a model I expect to own for many years and fly frequently I just can't see using it.
Of course we COULD do what they did with linen back in the early days. It was learned during WW I that silver dope cut the UV rays of the sun and prevented the linen from rotting and ripping off the airframe in a dive. But for OUR use what's the point of using such a lovely looking covering and then laying silver dope all over it?
The synthetic materials tend to not be quite as translucent as the silk. But they don't have this same degree of sensitivity to UV exposure as the silk. So if you can locate some super light synthetic that is comparable to silk for looks that might work out better.
I'll keep my eyes open for that yellow poplar. But it appears that it's more an eastern wood. The lumberyards tend to sell what they can obtain locally.
The good news is that our western pine is far more like sitka spruce than the eastern pine is. So I won't feel too bad if I can't find the yellow pine as long as I can keep finding such nice examples of western pine with this same density of growth rings.
