first time tips
08-07-2005 | 07:48 PM
#2
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From: Seattle, WA
RE: first time tips
Might I suggest that you do a bit of research on the web re float mounting. Tons of good info from experts and it would take a lot of space on this forum to cover it all. There are a lot of illustrations as well and may be more of an assistance to you. If after you have read a few articles and they seem unclear, feel free to ask for clarification.
Start with the mounting. Then read the multitude of tips re float flying.
Start with the mounting. Then read the multitude of tips re float flying.
08-08-2005 | 06:14 PM
#3
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RE: first time tips
Welcome to the forum. I am sure you will find a wealth of information, and many of us wil be overjoyed to help you. Just so we don't re-plow the sown field, maybe it would be productive for you to click on the search feature at the upper right of hte screen, and search in the seaplanes forum for keywords like "new to floats", "Newbie", "Getting started" ,"Float setup" etc. OR you can just scroll through all the pages of threads. THEN when you hit something that stumps you throw it out here and you'll get a pile of good advice.
One thing to remember: The biggest difference between land-based flying and float-flying is that Seaplanes don't have brakes. Anytime the motor is turning, it will be moving the plane. You can't just let it sit and idle like a dirt plane.
One thing to remember: The biggest difference between land-based flying and float-flying is that Seaplanes don't have brakes. Anytime the motor is turning, it will be moving the plane. You can't just let it sit and idle like a dirt plane.
08-17-2005 | 10:09 PM
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From: Peace River,
AB, CANADA
RE: first time tips
When taking off, make sure you are standing behind the plane so you can see when you need rudder!! If you are using conventional twin floats and the plane starts to wander off to the right or left you will end up dipping a float!! This will usually result in a very violent 90 degree sharp turn. Most always you will be fine if the engine doesn't quit and you can taxi back and try again. Also don't pull back too soon, let the plane get up on step and build up some speed before gently pulling back. If you pull back too soon the plane may again do a violent turn on you. This is because when you have the rear section of the float (behind the step) on the water at high speeds the float may stick to the water. And more often than not, one float may stick more than the other resulting in a sharp turn. Just run it up straight and level and once you see it start to get light gently pull back and it will lift off nicely. Then once you get to know your plane on water you will be able to lift off from any angle. Or atleast I do.
Landing is easy. Simply grease it in like you would on land. Only difference is you should have a little more throttle on so you can land the plane with more of a level attitude rather than trying to do a stall landing.
This has been MY experience. Hope this helps you.
PS: Once you get it.... you'll say "Awww this is easy"
Landing is easy. Simply grease it in like you would on land. Only difference is you should have a little more throttle on so you can land the plane with more of a level attitude rather than trying to do a stall landing.
This has been MY experience. Hope this helps you.
PS: Once you get it.... you'll say "Awww this is easy"
08-17-2005 | 10:55 PM
#5
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RE: first time tips
The best advise I can offer is to make sure that you floats point down about 2 degrees in relation to your wing incidence.
This will mean that as you speed up for takeoff, you will have a little positive incidence in your wing to help you lift the extra weight of the floats off the water.
This will mean that as you speed up for takeoff, you will have a little positive incidence in your wing to help you lift the extra weight of the floats off the water.
08-18-2005 | 12:50 AM
#6
My Feedback: (2)
RE: first time tips
Best place to get answers is in the seaplane forum. There are some rules for setting up a floatplane, but I have seen most of them broken to the extreme, and the planes still fly. The trick is to get a middle-of-the-road setup that will fly, then tweak it from there.
The first consideration is the location of the float step in relation to the cg. I like to have mine in the exact same place as the wheel contact point (for a taildragger)...some folks prefer it farther back than that. Too far back, or too far forward and you will run into handling difficulty on the water at speed..I'll get back to this in a moment...
The second consideration is the angle of the floats relative to the wing. (I have seen wild variations on this theme). The bottom line is that with floatplane resting on a flat surface, with the step and the heel of the float touching the surface, an incidence meter on the wing should give you 7 degrees positive incidence.
Once you have these 2 variables nailed down, you will have a plane that will take off, and fly. (if the floats are the right size).
Now the floats can be considered to have 2 separate sections- the part ahead of the step, and the aft part behind the step.
The only function of the front part of the float is to support the model through boyancy when it is at rest or at very slow speed (taxiing) on the water. Except for this phase, we want the front part of the floats out of the water at all times.
The next speed range (on water) is the moderate range. Here we want to replace the floatation boyancy of the front of the floats with hydrodynamic lift from the aft part of the floats. This is done by holding full up elevator and adding power. At this point, the floats are plowing a lot of water until speed builds up.
As the speed of the plane increases, hydrodynamic lift increases, meaning less of the rear part of the float is required to be in the water to provide the same amount of lift. We ease up on the elevator, which allows the nose of the model to drop a bit, and allows the model to accelerate even more, meaning less and less of the float surace is required to be in the water to support the model (at this point the wings are beginning to supply some lift).
At high speed, the model is going to be running in a fairly level attitude, and only a very small part of the float, just ahead of the step is actually touching - both the nose and heel of the float are clear of the surface of the water...this is what is called being "on the step". As water drag has been greatly reduced, the plane accelerates to flying speed quickly and a gentle rotation (back elevator) will allow the wings to supply the lift required to rise from the surface. (this is where the 7 degree positive incidence fits in...giving you room to raise the nose attitude withough having the back of the floats hit the water again.) The technique is very similar to flying a taildragger from land.
Now back to the step position...if the step is too far back, or too far forward, the plane will be riding on more on the front part of the float at high speed..this can lead to directional instability and waterloops. depending on the model, having the step about 1/2" or so behind the cg seems to work well.
If the model starts porposing on takeoff, abort, taxi back and try again.
Landing is easier....most planes require a bit of power due to the extra weight and drag of the floats. aim to touch down with the back part of the floats first. The drag of the water will rock the model forward, reducing the angle of attack of the wings, reducing lift. If it should bouce, it will settle back quickly. If you touch down with the front part of the floats, it is similar to landing nosewheel first on a trike, and the results will be similar.
The first consideration is the location of the float step in relation to the cg. I like to have mine in the exact same place as the wheel contact point (for a taildragger)...some folks prefer it farther back than that. Too far back, or too far forward and you will run into handling difficulty on the water at speed..I'll get back to this in a moment...
The second consideration is the angle of the floats relative to the wing. (I have seen wild variations on this theme). The bottom line is that with floatplane resting on a flat surface, with the step and the heel of the float touching the surface, an incidence meter on the wing should give you 7 degrees positive incidence.
Once you have these 2 variables nailed down, you will have a plane that will take off, and fly. (if the floats are the right size).
Now the floats can be considered to have 2 separate sections- the part ahead of the step, and the aft part behind the step.
The only function of the front part of the float is to support the model through boyancy when it is at rest or at very slow speed (taxiing) on the water. Except for this phase, we want the front part of the floats out of the water at all times.
The next speed range (on water) is the moderate range. Here we want to replace the floatation boyancy of the front of the floats with hydrodynamic lift from the aft part of the floats. This is done by holding full up elevator and adding power. At this point, the floats are plowing a lot of water until speed builds up.
As the speed of the plane increases, hydrodynamic lift increases, meaning less of the rear part of the float is required to be in the water to provide the same amount of lift. We ease up on the elevator, which allows the nose of the model to drop a bit, and allows the model to accelerate even more, meaning less and less of the float surace is required to be in the water to support the model (at this point the wings are beginning to supply some lift).
At high speed, the model is going to be running in a fairly level attitude, and only a very small part of the float, just ahead of the step is actually touching - both the nose and heel of the float are clear of the surface of the water...this is what is called being "on the step". As water drag has been greatly reduced, the plane accelerates to flying speed quickly and a gentle rotation (back elevator) will allow the wings to supply the lift required to rise from the surface. (this is where the 7 degree positive incidence fits in...giving you room to raise the nose attitude withough having the back of the floats hit the water again.) The technique is very similar to flying a taildragger from land.
Now back to the step position...if the step is too far back, or too far forward, the plane will be riding on more on the front part of the float at high speed..this can lead to directional instability and waterloops. depending on the model, having the step about 1/2" or so behind the cg seems to work well.
If the model starts porposing on takeoff, abort, taxi back and try again.
Landing is easier....most planes require a bit of power due to the extra weight and drag of the floats. aim to touch down with the back part of the floats first. The drag of the water will rock the model forward, reducing the angle of attack of the wings, reducing lift. If it should bouce, it will settle back quickly. If you touch down with the front part of the floats, it is similar to landing nosewheel first on a trike, and the results will be similar.
08-18-2005 | 08:03 AM
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From: Baraboo ,
WI
RE: first time tips
Good advise so far:
Make sure you have a retrieval boat. No joke.
Make sure you are pretty good at touch and go's on land. If you can go out and do 10+ touch and go's without any problems whatsoever, then you are very ready.
Make sure you have a decent, reliable engine on your plane. You don't want to use that boat more than necessary. Note that I didn't say overpowered engine - one would think that you need lots more power to carry the floats and the resultant drag, but it isn't so. Our planes have a great power to weight ratio anyway, so if your plane flys fine on wheels it will be OK on the water too. No need for any extra weight of too big an engine...
Those are just some of the very basics.
Float flying is very fun! Check out the "What kind of guy wants to fly a floatplane" thread right here and you'll see how fun it is!
Good luck and keep us posted.
Jeff
Make sure you have a retrieval boat. No joke.
Make sure you are pretty good at touch and go's on land. If you can go out and do 10+ touch and go's without any problems whatsoever, then you are very ready.
Make sure you have a decent, reliable engine on your plane. You don't want to use that boat more than necessary. Note that I didn't say overpowered engine - one would think that you need lots more power to carry the floats and the resultant drag, but it isn't so. Our planes have a great power to weight ratio anyway, so if your plane flys fine on wheels it will be OK on the water too. No need for any extra weight of too big an engine...
Those are just some of the very basics.
Float flying is very fun! Check out the "What kind of guy wants to fly a floatplane" thread right here and you'll see how fun it is!
Good luck and keep us posted.
Jeff
08-18-2005 | 11:07 AM
#9
My Feedback: (1)
RE: first time tips
Especially if you have a "mishap" a couple of hundred feet from the shore and the aircraft is taking on water.. move quickl
Apart from a leaky float I had a very rewarding and educational first weekend of float flying last weekend. I followed the guidelines I had read and been given about float installation, takeoffs and landings, and voila! Nothing scary at all about the basics of float flying, except for the aforementioned leaky float. I don;t hink anyone on the lake had seen an R/C seaplane before so there were several curious people (with EXTREMELY curious kids - a good thing!) boating over to say hi and check it out.
My $0.02 worth of advice from my experience is to float the airplane for a while, then check to see if the floats took on any water. Of course, with skinned/glassed foam floats that's less of a problem than with hollow floats.
Mike D.
Apart from a leaky float I had a very rewarding and educational first weekend of float flying last weekend. I followed the guidelines I had read and been given about float installation, takeoffs and landings, and voila! Nothing scary at all about the basics of float flying, except for the aforementioned leaky float. I don;t hink anyone on the lake had seen an R/C seaplane before so there were several curious people (with EXTREMELY curious kids - a good thing!) boating over to say hi and check it out.
My $0.02 worth of advice from my experience is to float the airplane for a while, then check to see if the floats took on any water. Of course, with skinned/glassed foam floats that's less of a problem than with hollow floats.
Mike D.
08-19-2005 | 08:54 AM
#10
Senior Member
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RE: first time tips
I've experienced a leaky float in a real life float plane way out in the midde of nowhere ... not fun, but a hand pump is standard equipment on these things so we managed to stay afloat long enough while we hand carried fuel in buckets down to the airplane to get refueled and make it home. That's the short version of my most exciting aviation story, well *was* until my Northwest airlines flight from MSP to LAX (a month ago) lost an engine about 20 minutes out of MSP. A couple bang/clank noises and she spooled down. Fortunately it didn't shed parts into the wing structure and everything else continued to work perfectly. We turned around and came straight into MSP with no further incident. <whew>.
[ sorry for diverging rapidly off topic ]
For what it's worth, I just have to recover and reattach the elevator/rudder on my Mariner 40 and that problem child should be back in the air. The default elevator joiner is made of hardwood and glued with some sort of glue that softens with the slightest moisture causing the elevator halves to separate. Nice glue choice for a seaplane Lanier! Furthermore, one half of the elevator was made out of solid oak (or some tropical equivalent), so I ripped them off including the rudder and rebuilt them using real 1/4" thick balsa wood and a hard-wire elevator joiner. I'd suggest this as standard operating procedure for anyone putting together a new Mariner ... your elevator halves will separate sooner or later, water get's in at the hinges and works it's way around into the wood under the covering, which then has a tendency to separate from the wood allowing even more water in ... I was lucky and had only partial separation of the joiner and was able to save the plane, but I wasn't happy about the whole thing. My goal is to get through one weekend of seaplane flying without having something fall apart, fall off, break, peel off, etc. I think this plane would be fine (like any other cheap arf) if you kept it dry ... but water and shoddy construction don't mix I guess.
Curt.
[ sorry for diverging rapidly off topic ]
For what it's worth, I just have to recover and reattach the elevator/rudder on my Mariner 40 and that problem child should be back in the air. The default elevator joiner is made of hardwood and glued with some sort of glue that softens with the slightest moisture causing the elevator halves to separate. Nice glue choice for a seaplane Lanier! Furthermore, one half of the elevator was made out of solid oak (or some tropical equivalent), so I ripped them off including the rudder and rebuilt them using real 1/4" thick balsa wood and a hard-wire elevator joiner. I'd suggest this as standard operating procedure for anyone putting together a new Mariner ... your elevator halves will separate sooner or later, water get's in at the hinges and works it's way around into the wood under the covering, which then has a tendency to separate from the wood allowing even more water in ... I was lucky and had only partial separation of the joiner and was able to save the plane, but I wasn't happy about the whole thing. My goal is to get through one weekend of seaplane flying without having something fall apart, fall off, break, peel off, etc. I think this plane would be fine (like any other cheap arf) if you kept it dry ... but water and shoddy construction don't mix I guess.
Curt.
08-19-2005 | 02:12 PM
#11
Senior Member
RE: first time tips
Clolson, unfortunately your Mariner experience is not new --- you have my sympathy. The Mariner is a pretty face that hides a junkyard dog. Just be glad that it isn't a Lanier Seabird.
08-19-2005 | 04:29 PM
#12
My Feedback: (1)
RE: first time tips
I've seen a few less than complementary comments about Lanier products on the various RCU forums lately.. I remember years ago getting a "good deal" one one of their older style ARF's. Oh man, what a... well, I suppose it would have flown if I had bothered to build it.
08-19-2005 | 04:49 PM
#13
Senior Member
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RE: first time tips
For what it's worth, there are portions of the Mariner40 that are nicely done, and if it was flown off land, it would probably hold up about as well as any other lower end ARF. The problems really come from putting the thing in water. The materials and workmanship just don't hold up well when you try to float it in a lake. That's a shame becuase it's sold as a seaplane. :-) You probably won't see any problems after the first flight or two. My problems started stacking up after maybe the 8 or 10th flight.
Again for what it's worth, I don't think the Mariner is that much different from any other lower end ARF. It's not perfect. There will be things to complain about. It's probably a bit over priced for what you get. They sell like hotcakes on ebay so there must still be plenty of people willing to give them a whirl. Although if one more stupid thing breaks on mine, I'll be just about ready to give it a whirl ... :-)
Curt.
Curt.
Again for what it's worth, I don't think the Mariner is that much different from any other lower end ARF. It's not perfect. There will be things to complain about. It's probably a bit over priced for what you get. They sell like hotcakes on ebay so there must still be plenty of people willing to give them a whirl. Although if one more stupid thing breaks on mine, I'll be just about ready to give it a whirl ... :-)
Curt.
Curt.
08-19-2005 | 08:42 PM
#14
Senior Member
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RE: first time tips
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I have to retract a couple things I said earlier here. I rebuilt the elevator on my Mariner 40 out of decent wood with a metal wire joiner to fix the crappy elevator and hardwood joiner it came with. As I was tossing the old elevator in the trash I peeled the covering back some more and took a closer look at the joiner and it wasn't the glue joint that failed after all. It was a classic break right next to the glue joint. A failure is a failure, but I guess in this case I need to blame the wood, not the glue. I know it's a minor point, but I just want to be fair to Lanier. :-)
With all that in mind, my main complaint about the Mariner 40 at this point is the covering. They (or someone) claimed it was ultracote, but if that's the case, they must have really over temped it or something. It has absolutely no shrink left in it and water seems to encourage it to peel off.
So given that the elevator joiner failed in flight, I'm happy to still have the plane, and at the rate I'm going, I suspect I'll have to recover the fuselage at the end of this season ... :-(
But it's a nice looker, and flies great so I can't complain too much. I think if we combined the Mariner design with Sig ARF quality, I'd be really set.
Curt.
With all that in mind, my main complaint about the Mariner 40 at this point is the covering. They (or someone) claimed it was ultracote, but if that's the case, they must have really over temped it or something. It has absolutely no shrink left in it and water seems to encourage it to peel off.
So given that the elevator joiner failed in flight, I'm happy to still have the plane, and at the rate I'm going, I suspect I'll have to recover the fuselage at the end of this season ... :-(
But it's a nice looker, and flies great so I can't complain too much. I think if we combined the Mariner design with Sig ARF quality, I'd be really set.
Curt.
08-20-2005 | 01:46 PM
#16
Senior Member
My Feedback: (7)
RE: first time tips
ORIGINAL: red head
CURT : you could sell it on ebay!! Everyone else does. ENJOY !!!! RED
CURT : you could sell it on ebay!! Everyone else does. ENJOY !!!! RED
Curt.
