Sea Deuce
08-14-2010, 03:16 PM
#1
Sea Deuce
First, I had a Diamond Dust delta. Flew great. I decided to do a twin.
Second, came the Dusty Deuce, a twin Diamond Dust made by widening the center by 12 inches and using 2 OS .25FXs with Jett tuned mufflers. I did change to a single fin with a workable rudder. You need one of those on twins. Dusty was fast and nice to fly, but I finally grew tired of it.
Idea: I was taking the engines out in preparation for giving it away or trashing it, when I had this idea. Why not put it on floats!
Third, is the Sea Deuce, the Dusty Deuce, twin engine delta on floats. I had some fiberglass floats that someone had given me and they looked to be the right size. Flying buddy and builder, Flaps Laffert, took the plane and added internal bracing and installed the floats.
I was also leery of flying my OS .25s and Jett pipes over water in a delta. I had available 2 OS .46LAs that I had originally bought for water flying. Plain bearings-no ball bearings to rust out. I checked and the LA .46s were not much heavier than the .25FXs with the Jett mufflers. In went the plain bearing LAs.
Test Time: We arrived at the lake a little after 8AM. There was a little wind and mostly blue skies. I cranked both engines one at a time to set them, then cranked both for the test. The first attempt ended with one engine out due to water in the carb.
I re-cranked and this time, I nailed the throttle, held back stick. She jumped off and started climbing, really steeply climbing. Need down trim. I throttled back to half and ran in down trim until I ran out. It was still climbing a little at half throttle, but I could feel it out at that power. It still flies good with no bad vices.
I thrlttled back to land and it sank a little more than without floats. I used all the up I had just at touchdown. I checked the CG again and it hands a little nose low with a third tank of fuel, so I guess I need some tail weight and to use high rate for landing.
I have some pictures from before takeoff (always take them before in case there isn't an after). A friend with a long lens Nikon took some in flight, but it'll be Monday or Tuesday before I get them.
Second, came the Dusty Deuce, a twin Diamond Dust made by widening the center by 12 inches and using 2 OS .25FXs with Jett tuned mufflers. I did change to a single fin with a workable rudder. You need one of those on twins. Dusty was fast and nice to fly, but I finally grew tired of it.
Idea: I was taking the engines out in preparation for giving it away or trashing it, when I had this idea. Why not put it on floats!
Third, is the Sea Deuce, the Dusty Deuce, twin engine delta on floats. I had some fiberglass floats that someone had given me and they looked to be the right size. Flying buddy and builder, Flaps Laffert, took the plane and added internal bracing and installed the floats.
I was also leery of flying my OS .25s and Jett pipes over water in a delta. I had available 2 OS .46LAs that I had originally bought for water flying. Plain bearings-no ball bearings to rust out. I checked and the LA .46s were not much heavier than the .25FXs with the Jett mufflers. In went the plain bearing LAs.
Test Time: We arrived at the lake a little after 8AM. There was a little wind and mostly blue skies. I cranked both engines one at a time to set them, then cranked both for the test. The first attempt ended with one engine out due to water in the carb.
I re-cranked and this time, I nailed the throttle, held back stick. She jumped off and started climbing, really steeply climbing. Need down trim. I throttled back to half and ran in down trim until I ran out. It was still climbing a little at half throttle, but I could feel it out at that power. It still flies good with no bad vices.
I thrlttled back to land and it sank a little more than without floats. I used all the up I had just at touchdown. I checked the CG again and it hands a little nose low with a third tank of fuel, so I guess I need some tail weight and to use high rate for landing.
I have some pictures from before takeoff (always take them before in case there isn't an after). A friend with a long lens Nikon took some in flight, but it'll be Monday or Tuesday before I get them.
08-15-2010, 11:33 AM
#3
RE: Sea Deuce
Good to hear from you, Jim. Flaps and I are still kicking. He'll be 89 this November, so he has slowed down a lot, but he is still doing "projects."
I had a long take off run with the Sea Deuce. Flaps had the fuselage-float incidence ( or is it decalage?) set at about zero. The Diamond Dust airfoil is diamond shaped and fairly this for speed. I think when I added up for lift off, I was dragging the rear of the float and slowing down. I have added ply shims under the front struts so I am now at 2-3 degrees fuselage up with float top at zero. I hope this will let it more or less fly off without much elevator.
Flaps and I were talking on the way home yesterday about the difference in set-up for a plane with a lifting airfoil vs. one with a symmetrical airfoil. I have noticed the long takeoff run with planes with a symmetrical airfoil before, even with the way I usually over power my planes. I have been meaning to try a little takeoff flap or flaperon, but haven't gotten around to it. The best plane I had for taking off was a Stinger 40 with tail dragger, tri-floats. I could rotate to a good angle without the tail float dragging.
I had a long take off run with the Sea Deuce. Flaps had the fuselage-float incidence ( or is it decalage?) set at about zero. The Diamond Dust airfoil is diamond shaped and fairly this for speed. I think when I added up for lift off, I was dragging the rear of the float and slowing down. I have added ply shims under the front struts so I am now at 2-3 degrees fuselage up with float top at zero. I hope this will let it more or less fly off without much elevator.
Flaps and I were talking on the way home yesterday about the difference in set-up for a plane with a lifting airfoil vs. one with a symmetrical airfoil. I have noticed the long takeoff run with planes with a symmetrical airfoil before, even with the way I usually over power my planes. I have been meaning to try a little takeoff flap or flaperon, but haven't gotten around to it. The best plane I had for taking off was a Stinger 40 with tail dragger, tri-floats. I could rotate to a good angle without the tail float dragging.
08-20-2010, 01:19 PM
#4
RE: Sea Deuce
More pictures. I really flew the thing. It took a long run to get off. I finally figured out that deltas need a pretty high angle of attack on takeoff and landing and when I rotated, I dragged the rear of the floats, slowing my speed. Finally, the power yanked it off-see first picture. I have since raised the nose a few degrees more compared to the top of the floats.
I am open to any other suggestions.
I am open to any other suggestions.
08-20-2010, 03:27 PM
#5
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RE: Sea Deuce
Interesting plane, nice to se something out of the ordinary!
Yes, deltas do need a higher AoA to take off. Float's designed for "ordinary" aircraft will not work well then, either you drag the rear of the floats or you need a much higher speed to take of.
To remedy this i sugest you increase the uppward angle on the flaoats aft of the step to make it possible to rotate more. A ordinary plane need to rotate 8 to 10 degrees on takeof, a delta might need to rotate 15 to 20 degrees. An unwanted by product of this is that the plane will ride nose high when taxing, as flotation is lostaft of CGas the float is cut away to allow rotation.
A taildragger type tri float set up, two front and one rear, might be a good idea as this can be arranged to allow enough rotation. Or go for two front floats and one on each wing tip for more stable platform
Yes, deltas do need a higher AoA to take off. Float's designed for "ordinary" aircraft will not work well then, either you drag the rear of the floats or you need a much higher speed to take of.
To remedy this i sugest you increase the uppward angle on the flaoats aft of the step to make it possible to rotate more. A ordinary plane need to rotate 8 to 10 degrees on takeof, a delta might need to rotate 15 to 20 degrees. An unwanted by product of this is that the plane will ride nose high when taxing, as flotation is lostaft of CGas the float is cut away to allow rotation.
A taildragger type tri float set up, two front and one rear, might be a good idea as this can be arranged to allow enough rotation. Or go for two front floats and one on each wing tip for more stable platform
08-21-2010, 11:50 AM
#7
RE: Sea Deuce
I've used flaperons on conventional planes, but a tailless plane like a delta only has elevons, a combo of elevator and aileron. There is no other control to drop down.
The same photographer with his long lens Nikon also caught me on takeoff. I was dragging the rear of the floats. I finally went to full up elevator and let the power yank it off. I have since added a 3/16 ply shim to the front struts. Hopefully, this will give me a little better takeoff.
I have used tail dragger, old timer floats and love them. I may need to figure a way to mount them on the delta. I had them on a Stinger 40 and it made the best takeoffs and landings.
The same photographer with his long lens Nikon also caught me on takeoff. I was dragging the rear of the floats. I finally went to full up elevator and let the power yank it off. I have since added a 3/16 ply shim to the front struts. Hopefully, this will give me a little better takeoff.
I have used tail dragger, old timer floats and love them. I may need to figure a way to mount them on the delta. I had them on a Stinger 40 and it made the best takeoffs and landings.
08-21-2010, 12:28 PM
#8
RE: Sea Deuce
I'm pretty sure You just need to do another mix "elevator/flap mix",, the radio will account for the fact you're mixing ailerons/elevator also.
I had 3 mixes running on my Kingfisher to get the ailerons to drop with the flaps, I turned it off because the ailerons was too mushy on landing/takeoff, But Oh how it slowed down
If I remember right I had (1/7 Ail-Diff), (1/flap), (7/flap) I'm pretty sure You can mix as many things as you want and the radio allows
p.s.
Then mix the throttles with the rudder for variable thrust taxing
I had 3 mixes running on my Kingfisher to get the ailerons to drop with the flaps, I turned it off because the ailerons was too mushy on landing/takeoff, But Oh how it slowed down
If I remember right I had (1/7 Ail-Diff), (1/flap), (7/flap) I'm pretty sure You can mix as many things as you want and the radio allows
p.s.
Then mix the throttles with the rudder for variable thrust taxing
