Quick question folks...

Lockheed (or someone they contract) is apparently enforcing some copywrite/license stuff with regard to products manufactured and sold which represent Lockheed Martin (and parent company) aircraft.

Any of you manufacturers/reps run into or are aware of this? If so, how did you handle it and proceed?

This from DJ Aerotec recently
http://www.djaerotech.com/index1.html

I am aware of 3 different companies that had issues and discontinued products or plans for products due to this. Most appear to involve the P-38, but I'd imagine there are others I have not seen yet.

Clearly, the F-16, F-22, F-111, F-104, P-80 all fall in the same catagory.

Bob

Don't have any info, but ran across this by accident:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_22...tm.htm#2267636

see the response in the first post from Great Planes.

Dennis

Bob, I'm the "J" (Joe Hahn)in DJ Aerotech.
I know from another thread that Top Flite has been approached---do you know who else??
How did we handle it and proceed??--my partner the "D", explains it very well, I think, on our website
http://www.djaerotech.com
We'll be selling P-38's and Electras at a good price until years end(2004).
Guarantee you won't see another Lockheed anything from us. Too bad.
We only hope this crap doesn't "spread" to other full size companies----the potential is there.
In the meantime, we'll eventually be producing an F7F and a Beech 18 to fill (very nicely) the vacancies left by the discontinuance of these kits.

I once spoke with someone at BVM abour updating the F-16 model to the latest configuration, and to my understanding, they DID pay Lockheed some royalties from sales.

You guys familiar with the IL-2 series of flight simulators? Apparently the same thing is preventing the addition of US WWII aircraft in any upgrades to Pacific Fighters.

[link=http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=114]Pacific Fighter Forums[/link]

This happend years ago in the model railroad community when a large RR would not allow their logo or any likeness to be produced on any model RR locomotives or rolling stock... not sure what the outcome was because it was around that time that I rediscovered model airplanes..

I heard something like this also in the plastic model airplane kits, but have no details on what happened.....

HI,,not sure whats going on with the P-38,,but last may,,i received permisson from LH Martin in writeing,,about produceing one of there Jets,,they were more then helpfull,,even came up with some the best detailed cross sections you could ever imagine,,took me about 5 months ,,going back and forth with them,,but it worked out really good,,I was dealing with there office in Texas..Actually took me most of the time to find the right person to discuss it with,,


NdFrSpeed

For those who might be interested, check out the list of trademarks, etc at the bottom of [link=http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=2&rsbci=0&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400]this page[/link]. Didn't miss much, did they ?

hmmmm according to that list, they only copywrited these names:
..so presumeably one could use on of the other p-38 models, or simply call it Lightning (they missed that one)......

Good eyes Nony. I somehow doubt they simply missed those. If they aren't on Lockheed's " hit list " it's probably because, for whatever reason, they couldn't put them there.

i remember reading an article several years ago, that a r/c pilot built a mustang racer, he coppied the Kodak #4 paint and numbers, then sent a pic of that plane to Kodak, he recieved a letter back from Kodak, telling the pilot he had to remove the number and anything else that had anything to do with Kodak

mark

[quote]ORIGINAL: e-dave

Good eyes Nony. I somehow doubt they simply missed those. If they aren't on Lockheed's " hit list " it's probably because, for whatever reason, they couldn't put them there.
[/quote

Yes but,....they got you when they mention "any configuration", and also they say, "Just because it ain't mentioned don't mean it ain't covered by copyright"

Sux Huh?

..okay, we'll call it a B-38 Nightling

Are they going to copy write the "Webster Dictionary" too?? If you guys read the second paragraph below thier list of names, they say that they might have missed some and to not use them either. [:-]

I kind of seems to me that ALL the Military aircraft are fair game to be modeled (and honored) since WE the tax payers funded their developemnt and procurement. These aircraft are OUR national treasures. If it wasn't for our tax $$$ there would be no Lockheed..............ooops! I hope I don't get a bill from some pencil-necked geek tax lawyer since I used their name.

This #$%@ is getting out of hand!


Just my $.02 worth.

John

They can't copyright the word "lightning" as it is a word already in everyday use in the English language. I understand copyright infringement on designs to be avoided by deviating by +-15% from the outline. I'm not sure if this applies to the shape in any scale, however, so by shrinking their original (obviously by more than 15% for our use!) shape we may have avoided infringing, but I somehow doubt it. BTW, just because someone has copyright to something doesn't mean their claim to copyright can't be challenged and beaten if you have the resources. I used to have a lot of respect for Lockheed for creating some of the world's most innovative fighters but I really don't know what they think they will gain from this - it's not like someone is going to make fullsize replica F22's for sale in Mexico.......

I tend to agree that this action by Loochkeed may be iffy. Wish I still have access to a patent dept. One point may be protecting a registered trade mark (TM). I understand the rule of using a TM always with a common noun to prevent it becoming generic; eg. Nylon plastic, Coke softdrink. So accordingly, can we use model of P-38?

Cheers, Phil

Guys, if you need help regarding contact info for LM licensing fell free to PM any time. I work at LM Fort Worth (which is the Headquarters of the Aeronautics division) , and used to be part of the F-16 program.

Good luck with your projects.

david

I too work for LM down here in New Orleans where we build the External Tank for the Shuttle system. IIRC, a few years ago I e-mailed our legal guy about a similar case where a company making small hand launch toy free flight planes, stand off scale of some Lockheed designs, had an issue like this. His response was something to the effect that it was OK and the company was not pursuing him as the stuff on the internet made it sound. I will look at work for the e-mails, but I doubt I still have it.

Hi All

Years ago before 911, Boeing was sending drawings out for free on any of their models that they have aquired. I requested and recieved the most detailed drawings of the F/A 18 Super Hornet. From cockpit tolanding gear. A few months ago I asked for drawings on the P-51 and At 6. I was told that since 911, all requests are on hold.

Now, in the F-18 pack of drawings is a set of rules, were they have said that if I offer models of the F-18 commercially, licensing would be required.

Steve

Thanks for the replys folks.

I use to work for Lockheed myself. Worked last in Marietta, primarily on the F-22 program. Not long ago I contacted some folks I knew there asking about the copywrite stuff, and I did not get any real good answers. But it was clear that they do consider the designs and likenesses copywrite material.

At one time while on the program, I wanted to build a flyable R/C F-22 model. I was prohibited from doing so due to copywrite reasons, and also due to the fact I was involved with the program - there were "other" conflict/security/proprietary issues involved. It simply was not worth the hassle.

I was just more surprised that they would be chasing smaller model companies, especially after about 60 years of models being commonly available. I can see perhaps going after high volume stuff like clothing, video games, etc... but even that is a stretch. Maybe the approach is to avoid problems by making no exceptions.

Someone note the Kodak plane. I've heard of that myself. Also some other companies who regulate or prohibit stuff like that. Turned out in one case, it was because someone had a model stock car painted "in scale sponsor colors" that clipped someone in the ankles. In the resulting lawsuit (lawyers rule the world ?), the "sponsor" from the paint job was included as a defendant simply because their name was on the r/c car.

Also, if you look in the Extream Speed forum a few months back, there was an RCU member building a patriot, and was using the Red Bull colors. He requested permission... they wanted to charge him for using the markings.

Bob

So here is a dumb question. Can they go after you for making the G. D. F-16? I mean, if the design was out there for more than 10 years before LM purchased the design, do they really own the copyright to a design. I am not talking full scale; I am just referring to the making of a Model Plane. Same goes for the Falcon and Fighting Falcon name? Not trying to stir anything up either just would like some clarification.


Turbulence.

If my understanding was correct, the whole thing included all of the 'legacy' companies, such as GD, Convair, Consolidated, Martin, etc....

I figured if there were any substance to this, some of the F-16 manufacturers might have had the same issues along the way.

My best advice is do whatever you want but lay low, I mean don't make it obvious if your going to profit from any model making. LM will not hunt you down or naything for making any models for private use (as long as it doesn't make it on Discover Wings or similar).

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllll,,,,,,,,,,,If you can't get your super wafto F-16 on Discovery Wings.............Why Bother???????????????LOL[:-][:-]