magyarbacsi

Check out the newt toy Sikk is comming out with, offered by oneilbrothers. A water cooled version with the small fly wheel. Looks to be still a 2 bolt jug. Sikk/Superior jugs will fit Zenoahs with 4 port case as it is, ( the mounting holes have to by slightly filed to lign up)so the only advantage I can see is that various cranks offered by Sikk, e.g. stuffer, stroker, full circle, will fit the Sikk crank case. None of these cranks will work in the Zen cases as the cranks are too short on the fly wheel side. It can be done, but not without machining. If the price is right, may force the Zens to be more competitive.

A piture can be seen on Jim's Boat Dock page

Gopedder

Woah. Just a lil' input

The sikk cranks were designed entirely for the g23lh/g230rc engines. Sikk TOys is a company specaillizing in Go-peds and scooter racing. Wherever you heard the rumor of Sikk actually producing watercooled versions and 'small flywheels' is false. Sikk toys will only work on the 0RC motor. If you see a watercooled SIKK 27cc cylinder, it isn't factory made, but just a cut cylinder with a water jacket. If I am correct, you guys are using the PUM series motors, which is identicle to the g2d, which also has their own series of a/m parts. It also isn't that Sikk cylinders aren't 4 port top ends, but they have different bolting patterns (RC has 2). Also, the Sikk crank case you speak of is also a complete clone of the g230rc.



-Gopedder...... Proud tuner of the g230rc motor.

OLD_SLOW and in the WAY

Hi ya Gopedder.....
a lot has been going on with some of the boat engine guys and Superior engines and yes they are gonna come out with a marine version using the small flywheel of the pum engine with a modified rc230 type of crank.
the pum engine is not a g2d. the g2d was aircooled version with the big fan type flywheel.

here is a post from Jims Rc boat dock

Check it out sikk toy watercooled motor comming soon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click the link below to check out the picture.
<img
src="">www.oneillbrothersracing....ay/2.jpg">

Here is a picture of the new motor. This motor is going to come in 4 different sizes. There should be a size for every class. 23cc through 26.9cc We should have a few samples to try in the next few weeks. The good thing about the sikk products are they are open for new ideas and changes. We are looking to find some experienced rc boaters that will give us the pros and cons on this motor. If you are interested email me at [email protected]

Gopedder

Hey fastrat_porting_service. I meant that the PUM crankcases are VERY similar to the g2d and use the same cranks of similar dimensions. As for the whole Superior/Sikk rumor, I'm am almost 95% sure its not true. i have a huge involment in the goppeding idustry (using the g230rc, from everything to Billet crankcase Reed valve induction systems, to 6 port 26cc headkits and +2mm strokers), and I know for a fact that Sikk/Superior doesn't really concern for the r/c industry. and what do you mean a small flywheel? For what cases? ANyways.... I can almost guarantee that it is just a 3rd party doing a conversion. There is always the chance I am wrong however... The link in your post isn't working. Superior and Sikk toys IS NOT REPRESENTED by O'neil brothers racing, whom specialize in Go-ped/g230rc motors sales/customs, and I must say, have slightly sour reputations.
Links:
[link=http://www.esuperiorproducts.com/default.aspx]http://www.esuperiorproducts.com/default.aspx[/link] (superior webpage)
[link=http://sikktoys.com]sikktoys.com[/link] (Sikk toys webpage)

OLD_SLOW and in the WAY

ok to clarify the small cases thing itys whats known as the peanut/aircraft type its the pum version which has no cooling fan but either an air blast from a prop or a watercooling jacket. the flywheel used in this engine is about 3" in diameter. Thanx for the heads up with the O'Neil Bros. there are way too many lets say bottom feeders out there for my tastes. as you know the flywheel/ign end of the rc 230 crank is very short and to run the rc230 type crank with the pum ignition an adaptor must be made ....... well there is going to be a hybrid crank made that will accomplish this task, allowing us to run the "full circle crank"


ok now hows about this 6 port head


great info Gopedder ........the boat racin guys have a pretty heavy regulatory boot on our necks so a lot of the hotrod stuff you guys develop we cant use in racin..... yet

magyarbacsi

A picture is worth a thousand words. I have seen the picture as well as a lot of Jim's Boat Dock pPager readers. Unfortunately, the picture is no longer on the site. Dont know what happened to it. Dont matter ,say so dont make it so and the converese is true. When the figment gets produced, I'll just pretend to drive my boat with it.

OLD_SLOW and in the WAY

as we speak i have a stock one on order. i will tear it apart, do the mods , post some pics stick it on the test stand .... before and after and we will see what we shall see.

magyarbacsi

Larry, are you on the waiting list or is Oneilbros. actually taking orders. Last they sent me an email stating they will notify me when the motor is for sale. I also have my name on the waiting list and just wondering.

How'd you like the dyno results on the 27cc converts. Do you know what is the special fly wheel mentioned on Jim's posts re the use of Sikk cranks in conjunction with the the PUM cases? It said in order to use the full circle Sikk crank, the case needs to be milled out to fit the special fly wheel. I have the machines, mill, lathe. I have purchasd several of the HE motors that I've already modified to water cooled and know the crank is about 3/8" shorter then the Zen's, hence the need for the "special" fly wheel. Who has them?

Gopedder

Seriusly guys.... i wouldn't deal with o'neil bros. They are known for being wannabe industry 'leaders'. I guess they are trying to make money in your guys' industry. They are known as the "Bolt on Brothers" because they don't really do anything special apart from their 'race carb' which is basically an alchohol carb with a widended venturi, etc.

YOU WANT PORT HEADKIT?!?!?!?
Voila!

Voila!
[link=http://www.davesmotors.com/store/internal.html]http://www.davesmotors.com/store/internal.html[/link]


Magyar, Fast, this is why I love you guys:
see attachment...

OLD_SLOW and in the WAY

Gopedder that is one bad ***** motor scooter you have there....

the bolt on two peice head you showed would put my boats in whats called the GX2 class which is almost never ran except at national events. the engine i have comin isnt from the O'Neil bros its from a "comarade" boat engine builder. you guys have some neat stuff and some is workin its way across the lines. With the introduction of the Superior engines Brand Zenoahs stranglehold on the sport has been relaxed and a more affordable engine is out there. they have heard the voice in the wilderness callin for more displacement and have responded where zenoah just sat on their hands....

BajaBob-delete

The picture is still on Oneils site and the link to it is on page2 at Jims.

Gopedder

LOL! I wish it was mine! Those are 2 PUM motors built by some dudes. They don't run the 'pulse' pump, and youd be surprised at the mods it has. Because they have to push in excess of 170 lbs... running at about 35+mph, they have custom water jackets with 3/4 in brass fittings... the pulse pump wouldn't be able to cool that fast, so those were outfitted with 'polini' radiator pumps (mini motorcycle bike). Here's my scooter (g230rc with internal modifications):


I've been wanting to build a PUM scooter for HELLA long. If Im correct, the cylinder bolts on to the PUM g2d style... correct? I derno. But seriously..... Superior and Sikk = crap. Their castings SUCK.... The materials SUCK.... Because of the money they have, these aren't 'casted' long enough and result in tons of 'air bubbles' in the material. They did cause such a splash though... You can get a Sikk toys engine cloned off a g230rc for half the price of the Zenoah made one.

magyarbacsi

If Atila was alive today, he'd probably trade in his horse, and a few wives to boot, for one of those scooter set ups. Magyar? Is that you or the motor?

Karoly

Gopedder

I'm confused.

magyarbacsi

Gopedder, maybe I misread your post. You posted a picture of a (yours?) scooter. and the caption read, Magyar, Fast, etc ,...Magyar means Hungarian. Attila, an old cousin of mine whom I have not seen for centuries now, was a Hun. My post regarding him trading his horse for the scooter was in reference to that. My question was regarding the make of the motor. Was it made in Hungary and who makes them.

I assumed the scooters were yours, but you know what they say about assuming...
Did I unconfuse you?

magyarbacsi

After I reread the post, I answered my own question. The scooters are not yours, but some "dudes".

I've talked to the owner of hookupz.net and he said that attempts to make PUM motors for gopeds has not been successful as it takes a large volume of water to cool them. We boaters are constantly changing the water so our water supply is what ever body of water we are boating in. To carry an ample supply of water on a small scooter would defeat all the hop up mods.

I'm not a metallurgist so I dont know about the castings of Sikk/ Superior. The cylinder walls are thicker and when I mill or turn them on a lathe, I dont see any difference from a Zen jug. I have bought several of their motors, cylinders and big bore kits just to see what can be done with them. I'm working on making clips that would bite down on the cylinder base of the two bolt jugs to adapt to the 4 bolt blocks. Yes, for the money I've spent on them I could of had a few built up Zenoahs. Did that two. Inquisitive minds need to know. I do like the chrome in the cylinder and the chamfer around the ports of the Sikk/Superior. I love clean, bright machines that spin and turn and make loud noise. Its a guy thing.

Gopedder

The thing is that with Hookupz, they tried selling their water jacket'ed cylinder with the absolutly crap pulse pump. From what I heard, the pulse pump is fine at the lower RPM's, but cant catch up at higher rpm's with the same volumn 'output'. I do respect your liking of Sikk/superior, but here are some sample pics of crapped up 'imitation' motors:



EDIT: I was just wondering about water cooling a goped.... Do you think there is anyway to run a pump off the flywheel? Im thinking gear reduction, pulled by a belt. What kinda pumps you guys use? i was thinking about watercooling for a while now, but the way the two pics above did it, you must be moving if you want it to pump (direct drive system). But if I were to do it on a clutch'ed scooter, i'd definately think about shaving off the flywheel fins and running some type of pump and pulley system.... but then again.... it would cause SOOOO much drag... What would you guys do?

Gopedder

More:
(these right here are examples of HORRID superior casting):

magyarbacsi

Not a pretty sight. The cracked cylinder almost looks like it was not proper tightening, like maybe the deck was warped-due to everheating?
Jerad at hookupz did admit that their attempt to water cool their motors was a failure and pointed out the reasons you did. And that to carry an ample amount of water that was needed was not feaseble.
Thanks for our input. I will certantly study them and take them into consideration.

Gopedder

Well actually, from what i've heard, Sikk and Superior based their designs off their own 'limits'. I dont know exactly what to call it, but I know that Zenoah has certain 'limitations' and 'squish' points that are 'blueprinted'. They say that when you put a Superior cylinder that isn't designed off Zenoah blueprinted limits, you'll get a cracked cylinder when installed. I believe in that the most, becasue I already know of about 4 people that said that their cylinder has broke in the exact way. Superior and Sikk have been asses about it and have made claims that 'the previous gaskets and gunk are what cause stress to the cylinder. They have no explanation for their casting though.

OLD_SLOW and in the WAY

this catastrophic failure appears to be from a foreign object being injested then lodging between the cylinder and piston and lifting the jug up hence breaking the cylinder base

BajaBob-delete

I for one am not impressed with zenoahs quality,they have thier issues too.Scooter engines with damage by a couple of kids isn't a fair representation of the engine in question.

Gopedder

To the last two, Sikk and superior have claimed that the piston c-clips may have fallen off and lodged, like you've mentioned... but I don't buy it.... Its happened to ALOT of people already, not all kids, but respected builders in our industry. The best porters in our industry even claim that they don't like these cylinders and parts... (ie... trevor simpson, which if none of you know, makes Reed cages, Case inducted reed cages, TOP CLASS porting 60cc zenoah headkits, 6 port heads, the WORKS... he doesn't buy that the added Thickness of superior/sikk is really too much to go for, and doesn't suport Superior/Sikk). This ped's owner also had a Sikk ccylinder that crapped out on him (pic of the new thing below).... although I do admit that he is a guy who isn't respected at all, a highschooler, but who also has experience in watercooling and various top ends with professionals installing everything:

(That's a Case Inducted Trevor Simpson reed cage, Trevor simpson timing retard/advance fan cover, an RC cylinder converted to be watercooled with bigger fittings, and other very nice goodies)
As for the 'kids' comment... this industry is adult ran and built, raced by people age 17+ average..... and also with the fact that these Sikk/Superior cylinders were designed for scooters in mind, is fair wnough representation for me.

Also, about Zenoah's quality... I really have no comment. Superior and Go-ped argue all the time. The weaker/hollow crank pin, a copper coated (i think) & heavier crank rod, a heavier piston, less cooling fins, 'stepped down squish band ring', 'hooked transfers with no chamfer', 'very thin and weak crank pin journals' on the zenoah g23lh clone are what Superior claims are heavy duty and better features, but which Goped claims isn't. I have seen some very killer superior based engines though (8 port cylinder... no pics because porter doesn't want his work revieled to public)..... but I'll always have to go Zenoah to qualify for the races. I do have to admit that the prices that Sikk and superior and Sikk sell their engines at is INCREDIBLE!!!! 27cc bigbore kit, and stuffed +2mm stroker crank installed in a ready to run sk23 runs for $200! (where as a Regular Zenoah g230 runs for $240 w/o exaust and air filt).