OK2Fly

Hello!
Lately, I've been having problems with my Showtime 50. On low rates, when I give some elevator input, the plane acts like it's tip stalling, always dropping a wing or snapping out. This happens when I'm trying to bank or pull out of a dive, etc. I've also heard of some Showtime 90's doing the same thing. I was getting weary of flying my ST50 because it always tried to kill itself. I stopped flying it and asked around. Then someone (with a ST90) told me to put a set of wing droops from H9's PTS Mustang on my Showtime, and HOLY CRAP they work. The ST50 tip stalls no more!

My ST50 is using an O.S. 55AX / [5]Futaba 3004's and [1]Hitec 635 servo / 6v 1400mah NiCad Rx battery. I'm using the recommended throws and the CG is right in the middle of what the manual stated.

Basically, my questions are:
-What would cause this in the first place?
-If anyone else has this problem, what did you do to fix it?

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

The SFGs will help upright but make it much worse inverted. Did you try it w/ the SFGs on? They should help.

However it sounds like a fundamental set-up issue. Too much elevator throw, and or not enough elevator throw on 3D rate.

My guess is your in the bad area of elevator throw, more than about 12 is degrees and less than 40 degrees (3D rate only)

krayzc-RCU

My Feedback: (31)

OK2Fly

Thanks, Mike. I have tried the same maneuvers w/ the SFG's on and off, and they do help, but I'll check the set-up again. But yea, I have noticed a "bad area" of elevator throw.

Aside from that, I haven't noticed any detrimental effects from the training droops (if any). They allow reeeeeeally stable harriers, and they're invisible in the air. Whatever my issue w/ the Showtime was, I don't care anymore because it flies so well. The wings make so much more lift... How about including them on some more ARF's?

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

How did they effect inverted harriers?

OK2Fly

The droops made inverted harriers rock-free. Without the droops, the plane teetered a little bit.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

Interesting. Seems impossible. the droops effectivly change the tip airfoil from symm to a very high lift undercambered section.

Of cource they are made to blend into the semy-symm airfoil section on the P-51 PTS so who knows what the section is on the tip of the ST50. I'd thing the benefit your seeing is more due to the added area at the tip than a change in Af section.

OK2Fly

Makes sense. Have you heard of another showtime doing this? (the tip-stalling on low rates thing)

Oh yea, I just picked up a Showtm.90. Beautiful plane BTW.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

Yes. Most airplanes will tip stall of too much elevator is used. How much elevator travel to you have on low rate?

OK2Fly

9/16" up--5/8" down.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

degrees?

Kruzer

Hi. Took the fuse out of the box and put it on the "bench" last night and am trying to decide .. 82? 1.00? This .50 is almost the size of my 3D Mayhem and that could use an upgrade from the 1.00. Shouldn't a .50 sized 2Stroke airplane take a 1.00 4C? I know I know... .82 is what's recommended, but three ounces more for something this big?

Mike, BTW... the covering job leaves a lot to be desired, very rough. U need pics I'll supply a few. Finish also rough in some places. The horizontal stab opening is rough, I can fix it but just not what I would expect from Hanger 9 you know?

This will be a protracted build. I will try to finish by the end of January/early February. Plan is to build as stress relief in little but very regular bits. Still I love the design and lines of the airplane, we'll see how it flies.

OK2Fly

Umm...If I measured correctly, that's 9 deg. up/10.5 deg. down.

OK2Fly

Kruzer,
An .82 should be fine for the ST50. The plane is built pretty light, so you don't need gobs of power, but...if you can fit and balance a 1.00 go for it! Just remember that throttle management thing so bits of Showtime don't flutter off...

I'm puttin' together a Showtime 90 with an Evolution 100+pitts muffler. Plenty of power and noise (I like em that way.)

Kruzer

Thanks OK2Fly. I have been weighing my options. I plan to fly more pattern with this airplane so I will try the .82 first. I do have other stuff for 3D. if the .82 does not make it I will upgrade to the 1.00, should not be too difficult.
Fly a lot! [8D]

OK2Fly

I know why I keep seeing this now, and it's a smart idea. I'm gonna populate the forums with smileys now...

Mike, thanks for the replies. I went to my peanut gallery and they agree it's the increase in wing area. Plus they're all old, so I guess they're right.

mv-warbird

i am thinkin of putting a really good running GMS 76 in mine and was told the motor box and gear would have to be beefed up for that.
i do land on grass.
i know the motor has enough pull out to 3d the plane.
any info on strengthening the airframe or not would help.

thnx,
mike v

OK2Fly

The Show.50 doesn't have a motor box, but if you mean firewall, I've had no structural problems with mine. I would recommend that the gear be strengthened by whatever method you choose. A couple crappy landings and mine broke, but if you land pretty good, there's nothing to worry about.

chuck993

the problems is not the showtime, most non-trainer non-high wing airplanes will tip stall at some point, the droops are for a trainer airplane to help the student learn how to fly and eventually, they take the droops off once the student is more proficient in landing and stalls...some food for thought...

OK2Fly

I realize and accept that, but my Showtime was tip stalling too soon in my opinion, because the plane is moving at a speed where I know the wings aren't stalled, and my elevator inputs are fairly gentle considering the type of flying this plane was designed to do. The droops don't hamper aerobatic ability, so I'm gonna keep 'em.

jamesrxx951

ok2fly

have you checked wing incedence. i had a funtana 50 that did the same thing. i couldn't even do a low rate loop without dropping a wing and i check everything execpt the incedence. i called horizon for any help and they told me 3d planes do this. i had a 3d guy in my club that does some competing fly the plane and he was amazed that i could keep this thing under control. anyway i was going to check incedence but before i could it went down and not the good way. i sent it to horizon and they replaced it so they must have been able to check the incedence and see there was an issue. or they were just keeping me happy which is ok because the costormer service is great. maybe check the wings and see if you can get some replacement wings. just my 2cents.

OK2Fly

Wing incidence, eh? No, I haven't checked because I don't have an incidence meter, but I'll consider picking one up from my LHS. It'll be interesting to see the results. But yea, pulling out of a loop or a dive required some extensive planning and altitude...

Did Horizon replace the whole plane? Cause that's some sweet customer service.

jamesrxx951

yes they did. i called them and told them about the issue and he told me that the plane does that so i continued to fly it until it demolition. i bought a fliton edge just to see if any similarities and this plane flew awsome this plane will wall like it hits a wall unlike the funtana which would just flop over. i sent them an email about it to customer service and they said to send it in so i did. they said they would replace it no charge. since it was on back order the let me switch to the showtime 50. there customer service is great wont hesitate to by a hanger 9 plane again.

jamesrxx951

my showtime 50 saito .82 spektrum dx7 ds821 servos with hitec 5645 on the rudder. i like to route the crank breather line down the landing gear for less clean up. the pup wanted in.

OK2Fly

That's good news. Nice pup, too.
I'll see what I can do about checking the incidence or calling Horizon. It's not really my top priority now because I've been flying the crap out of my Showtime 90 (which doesn't have my ST50's bad habits.) I've been thinking about shoving a gasser in the nose of the ST90, but that's another topic...What do ya think, Mike?

BTW, jamesrxx951, how does your Showtime fly?