Dr. Bellows

My Feedback: (7)

Ok, I have a few issues with my Raptor 30. I have an OS 32 engine, Hitec Eclipse 7 radio with digital futaba gear 3151 servos, futaba receiver and GY 401 gyro. First flight: The OS started right up, adjusted for run-in with heading hold mode at 90. At lift off she wanted to spin around, so I switched to non heading hold to get her under control. It was controllable but I had some nasty vibration on the training gear. I am using whiffle softballs with 5/16 dowls. Second start up, she would not start and I found the Enya #3 glowplug burned out. Call it a day and I went to Raptor Technique web for T/S ing vib and spinning. Found my set-up ok but I adjusted my dowls on the gear. Third run, I had the heading hold set-up at 51 percent and she lifted off ok, but she still was vibrating bad, planted her down, and she had the spinning tendencies. Went to adjust the gear again and she would not start again. Found my plug burned out! I don't think I have it leaned out since she was smoking pretty good. I am using 30 percent nitro, 2 clicks under 1 1/2 on the needle valve.
DB

RSL_Mongoose

Switch to an O.S. #8 plug and check the direction on the gyro, if your radio has revo mixing make sure its turned off.

Dr. Bellows

My Feedback: (7)

Revo is at zero. Gyro is switched correctly. When I turn it nose left the rudder servo moves forward. I will switch to an OS plug. Never had an issue with an Enya plug with all of my other fixed winged aircraft but was wondering if my nitro content might be too high for it. Normally Enya's use 5-10 percent.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

http://www.raptortechnique.com

http://www.futaba-rc.com/team/team-tip-002.html for 401 setup info.

tippy

I've been running my OS32 for 4 1/2 years now with OS8's and 30%. Running the engine at rich settings (like during break-in) will also degrade/kill your plugs.

You never mention that you adjusted your control rod length as a fix for your yawing. Did you do this already? You need your tail rotor pitch mechanically trimmed before the gyro can work correctly.

If by "moving forward" you mean a nose right command is induced then that would be right.

Vibrations? Are your main rotor blade grips at the proper tightness? Too tight and the blades will not center properly causing an unbalanced rotor disc.

Good Luck,
d.tipton

WhtBronco

The wiffle balls on my training gear caused my Raptor 50 to shake violently, really violently. I cut them off the carbon dowels and used a hula hoop instead. It woked perfectly. Both setups can cause the vibration, resonance due to the rotorwash. Since the wifle balls are causing you pobs, you might consider using a hula hoop.

Either use the dowels you have or get some 3/8" wooden dowels. Form an X with the dowels and wire tie them to the heli skids. Take the hula hoop and drill the appropriate size holes at the proper place . Cut the dowels just a bit longer than the outside diameter of the hula hoop. Then stretch the hula hoop and put it on the dowels. It works great as training gear and may resolve you resonance issue.

The best to be sure the training gear is the problem is to take it of and have a competent pilot fly it to check.

Are you turning on the Rx and allowing the gyo to initialize before touhing the heli again? Do not start the engine before you have the Rx on and gyro initialized or the gyro may no initialize corectly, besides it's dangerous. I am not implying that you do this, just ensuring you know not to.

Dr. Bellows

My Feedback: (7)

Tippy I did not make any adjustments as of yet since I want to fix the vibration problem first. Once I get that solved, I will set the rudder neutral position. Thanks for that advise. I think that may be my spin issue. But I have one question: Should I turn it on in non heading hold to get rudder neutral position and then back to HH before engine start?

I believe my vibration was induced by my training gear. Blades were balanced and the grips are set correctly. I think I'll try the hula hoops.

Yes I am allowing initializing of the gyro and the LED stays steady red in HH before I start it up.

tippy

You should turn your TX on first. Set HH ON in the TX. Then electrically power on the Heli. The gyro has to be powered on in HH.
You'll see flashing red and then steady.

Doesn't matter which mode you are in to start the engine however in order to mechanically trim the the tail rotor pitch you have to be in RATE (non-HH) mode. Once the heli is mechanically trimmed, HH should work OK.

There in lies the catch. A lot of advice will be given to beginners to learn in HH however these same beginners must be able to mechanically trim their helis which calls for hovering their helis in RATE mode. So my advice is to learn in rate mode because it requires you to learn how to control the tail, you instantly know when your trimmed or not and HH doesn't work right if your not mechanically trimmed anyway.

Good Luck,
d.tipton

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

I suppose you could also learn without a gyro but whats the point?

Learn in HH mode, its one less thing in a long list of things to worry about.

Sorry Tippy, I enjoy your informative posts but I have to respectfully disagree with that one.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Doc,

Raptor vibrations have a couple of common causes. Lack of proper lubrication of the rubber flap dampeners and spindle shaft is the first one. Low head speed is the second.

Like Chris said training gear can resonate as well but make sure the above are correct before looking at training gear.

RSL_Mongoose

What would be the point of paying all that money for a nice heading hold gyro and then running it in normal mode? With heading hole all you need to do is center the servo horn, no mechanical setup is neccesary on the tail, the gyro will take care of that. I never do mechanical setups on the tail, just servo travel limits.

This is from Jason Krause's setup tips on his site

GY-401

Well there is just not much to it, first read the book.

If the pirouette rate is not fast enough turn the limit setting on the gyro 20-30% higher. Yes it will bind the linkage but don't worry, doesn't seem to do it in flight.

Adjust your tail linkage so that your tail servo limit setting (on gyro) is over 100% NOT under. Setting the limits under 100% can reduce the life of the servo. Don't worry about the center setting just fly it in AVC or heading lock mode only.

Turn the gain up until it wags and back it off a little. This mostly occurs around 55-65% gain.

Also try the new 9254 servo it is faster and has more power...this is really a great help and seriously improves the gyro performance

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

With all due respect to Jason, the gyro will be more efficent if its mechanically centered. If you dont do the setup correctly and the thing is say 15 degrees off of center to hold a hover then its not operating efficently.

On the raptor all you really have to do is make sure the slider is 4.5mm from the tail case and the arm is centered and it will be pretty darn close to staying still in a hover even in rate mode.

Also turning up till tail wag than backing off a little usually results in too much gain and too little servo life.

RSL_Mongoose

I've never had a problem with that set-up, in my opinion anything else is a waste of time and effort, if theres no need to mechanically set it up why do it? A heading hold gyro will find center on its own.

sdavied

My Feedback: (4)

If the mechanical set-up is not correct, then the servo horn won't be at 90* to the control rod at hover. This is a situation where the servo has to move more in one direction to get the same effect as a smaller movement the other. So, even though you don't notice the difference in HH, the servo/gyro notices the difference.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

A properly set up average helicopter will fly better than a poorly setup great helicopter any day.

RSL_Mongoose

If you follow the set-ups listed above it will be properly setup

tippy

From the 401 manual: (normal = rate and AVCS = HH)

When making your first flight and when reconnecting the linkage, set the mechanical rudder neutral position by first flying in the normal mode and then flying in the AVCS mode.

(Rudder neutral position adjustment)
...
...
(3) Switch the transmitter gyro sensitivity switch to the normal position. At this time,
the monitor LED goes off. Lift off the helicopter and hover and adjust the rudder
neutral position with the transmitter trim lever.
(4) Set the gyro sensitivity to the point just before the helicopter tail begins to hunt.
(1) Set transmitter revolution mixing (pitch->rudder) to 0% or OFF.
This completes mechanical neutral position adjustment. Land the helicopter and
set the gyro to the AVCS mode. When flying, the power must always be turned
on in the AVCS mode and the rudder neutral position read each time.

So, I don't know how you do it but I follow this which says to do your mechanical adjusts ( which includes adjusting linkages if required) and/or trims in RATE mode.

So you see, in order for a beginner to make these adjustments, he/she must fly in RATE mode initially.

Good Luck,
d.tipton

Dr. Bellows

My Feedback: (7)

Looks like I am grounded for awhile due to weather "SNOW!" I checked everything out. All looks good, but I have a question regarding the 4.5 MM dimension. Should this be set-up when your are in the HH mode or Non HH mode?
Thanks DB

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Rate (non hh) mode. I just slip a 4.5 mm allen wrench between the pitch slider and the tail case. Like I said earlier, go through the setups on Raptor Technique and you won't have any worries.

ultraviolet

Electronic devices do not magically correct for poor mechanical setups.

The heli MUST have a proper mechanical setup before dialing in gain rates or
setting up mixes.

The best TX and gyro in the world are no subsitute for a properly setup machine.

A properly setup heli with a cheap tx/ gyro will fly much, much better than a poorly
setup heli with a GY 611 and 14MZ [8D]

RSL_Mongoose

I'll say it once again, I don't do mechanical setups its a HH Gyro whats the point, I have over 15 gallons throught my 50, its never hit the ground and its never had a tail problem, so you do it your way and I'll do it mine.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

It's cool that it works for you, and with the Raptor its pretty easy however as advice for newbies, its best that they learn proper setup.

RSL_Mongoose

Proper is a long way from best.

tippy

Are you saying that a gyro in HH will correct for a servo arm slapped on at any angle, a control rod attached at any distance or angle, a control rod adjusted to any length, and a pitch slider all the way against the stops? Just switching to HH will automatically make your heli fly OK?

I don't believe that. I believe that you DID do at least a ball park mechanical setup (whether you realized it or not) which the gyro has been able to compensate for (in your case). The thing is ... it DID require a certain amount of mechanical adjustment (consciously or subconsciously ) in order for the gyro to do that. Even the simple step of measuring (and setting) the 4.5mm is still mechanical.

I think that if you accidentally built your heli to where the mechanical setup was within the range of the gyro being able to compensate for the setup, one might believe that they don't have to do a mechanical setup (even though the mechanical setup was done).

Good enough is a long ways from best, too. You can have a mechanical setup that is just good enough for the gyro to work and then you can have a mechanical setup that works the best. I believe your setup is good enough for you just like my mechanical setup is good enough for me to fly in rate mode only.

Good Luck,
d.tipton

RSL_Mongoose

You do it your way and I'll do it mine.