just reading some of twinmans hints on the VQ site regard the use of the gyros.Have seen the FMA one used on singles he refered to Hobbico ones.Since dumb thunbing my twinstar I was able to obtain another NIB one.Since I insist on fooling with these things wa thinking maybe should buy one of those servos as also have the Tower P-38 kit so would have use for it.The FMA one sure preformed bueatifully on the trrainer they were playing with it on at the field but of course that was a single engine.Is that the same thing they were referring to for the twin,I am sure I would probably be to late to remember the rudder without a little assistance.Tha VQ A-26 is sure a neat plane but not sure of that covering sounds like the stuff Tower uses!

Moodier:

Go here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tm.asp?m=1063414

It's post #8 for the gyros on a twin.

The FME thing was probably the "Co-Pilot." And it would work on a twin also.

Bill.

Thanks for the site info Bill.Guess from what I can see the FMA unit operates on both aileron and rudder and is controled to the horizon where the gyros just act to straighten out the plane.I know have seen the FMA unit fly and is very good at flying the plane.Seen hands off landings in a cross wind with no problem.My idea for it is in the flying of twins in case of engine failure etc.Might put it on something else but that would be the purpose in buying it.Twin man seems very knowledgable on the Gyros but don't know if he has used this system?Thanks.Bob Moodie

My ears are burning.
While I am not trying to be an advertiser for Hobbico, they have worked well. I have also used the Futaba will also good results.
Personally, I did not like the Expert brand,or others at my field, as not enough gain for the rudder use.
No, I have not used the FMA auto pilot. If I understand the idea, it will gain control and level the plane if you let go of the sticks. If my understanding is correct, it might help with engine out, but what do you do to fly the plane after it is level with one engine out? Not sure on that point. As I understand it, touching the sticks cancels it's effect until you let go. Note, this is only my understanding of the use of this device. Good for trainers, but I am not sure about a twin trying to fly around to land with only one engine.

One small point, is that normal gyros do not straighten out the plane. Yes, a heading hold would, but I DO NOT RECOMMEND IT FOR THIS APPLICATION!! Note my post on this subject and experimentation with them.
Normal gyros only resist change in direction and dampen unexpected yaw or movement to a level that you can control it. My report and experimentation is to better control the almost instant inverted flat spin of heavily loaded P-38's with small rudders. I have now flown the Profile P-38 and while I was fortunate enough to not have an engine out, I feel that is will not even be close to the flying problem of a scale P-38 on one engine.
Good Luck,
Twinman

Let me ask this question/ statement.... on another thread... a guy states that the FMA device controls Ail. and Elev. to keep it in level flight... not the rudder
Which one is it?

Also on the above comment.... tell me a little more on the gyros for adverse yaw on engine out. I am building a C130 with 4 engines.... would the gyro help, or be good insurance?

Thanks

Billy:

Twinman has the idea, but not the actuality. The FMA Co-Pilot does not cut out with control input, when you fly weith it active you fly as you do normally, it tends to damp your inputs a little, but it remains active unless you switch it out.

And it operates only the ailerons and the elevator, it maintains level flight, but has no yaw (Rudder) control at all.

A conventional gyro will slow the yaw of the plane when one engine quits, and the FMA unit will try to keep it level.

Twinman's favorite is two gyros, the one on the rudder and a second on the ailerons. Using the FMA rig would make the aileron gyro redundant.

Twinman says "Hobbico," I have two gyros, both "Heli-Max." They work very well for me. Had a third, it left with one of the very few airplanes I've sold in recent years.

Maybe Twinman will come in with some more clarification.

Bill.

Sounds good. So the slowing of the yaw SHOULD give me enough time to correct? I am trying to get as many SYA (Save Your A%$) systems as possible. Thanks for the help.
Bill Richardson

According to my experience using FMA Copilot, yes it keep the wing level with ailerons and the plane level with elevator. When you use the rudder instead of the aileron, it do not control the yaw... it do the same work than the ailerons, the rudder work to correct the plane if it bank and keep the wings level.

On a twin yes it will help to avoid an inverted spin for a while sure by keeping the wing level but to help going strait... I will go for a gyro being able to control the yaw... because you really have a strong yaw when loosing an engine. It may be a few seconds more of control the time to notice what is going on. What the gyro will do after the first yaw move is done, the correction is apply automatically but I don't know if the gyro will keep the rudder full reflexions if not in heading hold mode... I don't think so... Never experiment it... but sure will help to keep control of the airplane for a while, giving you the time to slow down your heart beat, knees knocking .... and may be having time to throttle back an trim the plane a bit...

Hi;I want to thank those who have replied to this post for the excellent information!!Now it sounds like what I am looking for is the Gyro,In looking in Towers catalog I see 2 the Heli-Max and the Hobbico that are reasonbaly priced,the futaba I couldn't understand there add sounds like a gyro to but much more expensive.So if I have this correct either of those 2 Gyros would possibly help me keep things in one piece in the advent of engine out etc??Or at least till I got over the shock and did something myself!Again Thanks Much,Bob Moodie

Bob:

On page 210 of Tower's 2004 catalogue, I see the Heli-Max for $90 and the Hobbico for $70. I have been led to believe they are exactly the same unit with different labels. That makes me think the "Hobbico" label is far prettier than the "Heli-Max" label. And $20 cheaper.

What you can not do with either of these is adjust their gain from outside, much less turn them on or off. All switching and adjustments have to be done before take off. The fancier (more expensive) ones can be switched and adjusted from the transmitter.

If you want remote switching without Futaba pricing, Horizon has the Expert brand EX-100 for $100, including the remote gain switch. They also list the GWS PG-03 gyro for $55. I know nothing about it except that GWS has a good name, however they're mostly park flier stuff.

Either the Heli-Max or the Hobbico will do you very well. As I said, mine are Heli-Max, but when I bought them they were $60 each.

HTH

Bill.

My ears are burning again.
Thanks for the input on the FMA Bill.
Personally, and this is just my and one other opinion, I do not recommend the Expert gyro. I own one, and one of the guys at the field owns one, with the idea to adjust in the air. No matter what we did, you could not get enough gain for the rudders to be effective enough. Mine is in the box and the other guy returned his.
The Hobbico Multipurpose is a single input and output for the rudders. No, you cannot adjust in the air. The Hobbico Aero can work for single control,but is intended for dual input and output for two channel ailerons and you can adjust in the air.
Both of my P-38's are using both of these gyros, but the P-38, in my opinion is a very extreme case in the event of engine out. It will do an inverted snap roll faster than you can believe.
The gyro for the rudder(s) is to fight yaw. The second for the ailerons is to keep the snap roll, as one wing climbs, undercontrol.
These are not auto pilots, but as c130nut correctly stated, they WILL slow the unexpected yaw down to the level that you can react. The continued damping, will make control much easier. Somewhere in these posts, I discussed my testing with the two gyro set up on a converted ugly stick. If it cannot be found, I can post here again.
Are they, in my opinion, insurance, absolutely. Do I use them on my other five twins, no.
Good Luck,
Twinman

Here is the story of my experiments that I reported for my club newsletter, Hope it helps.

Twin Engine Saga: So You Want To Do Twins ? {Part 5} By Twinman

Rule Number 1– Don’t Do Twins– Four Times the Trouble
I guess if you’re still reading this section you obviously aren’t going to listen to rule number one so here is a suggestion to try and ease some of the anxiety associated with flying twin’s. Are gyro’s the answer?
I have previously explained how losing an engine on a twin can result in an inverted flat spin faster than you can imagine. It’s worse on Warbirds with high wing loading and wide engine spacing (P-38, B-25, etc)
I have decided to see if the problem can be solved by using two gyro’s on the plane. One gyro on the rudder, and a dual inlet/ outlet Hobbico “Aero Gyro” on the ailerons. This in mind, and for the glory of Bayou City Flyers (I hope Greenwood is getting this), I programmed my kit bashed Twin Ugly using a 8 channel Futaba to intentionally cause an engine failure and possible crash! Via a rotary dial channel, my copilot, and son Kyle, (who was only too happy to deliberately cause a crash) was able to bring one engine from full power to an idle on my command. As a side bonus this allowed me to sync the engines at idle very easily. After the initial setup and trim in flight I noticed a much more stable aircraft. Maneuvers became really rock solid. Hanging on the prop straight up was almost hands free. Now for the test. I flew level at half throttle, pulled the nose straight up and went to full power. At this time I signaled to the copilot (who was dying to help) to cut one engine to idle. This should have caused an immediate inverted snap roll. It did not. The plane slowly yawed toward the retarded engine. (I said retarded engine not pilot!) I then applied down elevator and flew three laps around the field, at various power levels, in a tense but controlled manner. The plane was flying at almost a 30 degree yaw angle in level flight, but fly it did and it should not have. I signaled my copilot (who had his mouth open in amazement or disappointment!) to bring the idling engine back up to speed. The engine promptly died! Naturally there was a cross wind, and I’m starting to have chest pains! The landing however was uneventful.
While these tests, at this time,are by no means a conclusive, this test did prove that the concept works. The gyro’s, as used here, do not take control of the plane but rather dampen unexpected actions sufficiently to allow you time to react. If you have to rely on your reflexes to do this you are already about a second or two behind the plane which, in a lot of cases, is too late!
As a side note I used the Hobbico “Aero Gyro” because it allowed me to use separate channels for the two aileron servos so I could mix in aileron differential. You could also couple the elevator and ailerons for more positive elevator control. This gyro also allows me the option of turning it off in flight as needed for aerobatics.
Are gyros the answer? Nothing replaces ability, but they do allow you to relax a little while flying twins. I have already had my heart attack trying this and could use a little relaxation.

Additional. This concept was further tested on an Areotech P-38 and was proved to be a viable way to control the P-38.

Since I wrote this story, I have used the two gyro system on three P-38's and lost engines several times. It does work.

Good Luck,
Twinman

Twinman, you have convinced me on the idea of using the gyros for my Yellow P-38. I've ordered the Futaba GY350 for rudder and GY351 for the ailerons. If there is any time that I don't want the insurance of using the gyros while flying, I can always turn the gain down on them. I would rather have the extra help of the gyros to give me the time to respond to an engine failure.

Trust me, You will never turn them off.
The plane will be very stable. Suggest that you fly another plane with them to get the feel.
If the plane "Wags" in flight, turn them down.not off.
Gyros do not take the place of proper preflight testing and the vertical test. Yes, even with gas engines!!!
Good Luck,
Twinman