I have almost completed the Top Flight DC -3. It will use the OS 46 LA engines and Robart scale retracts.

I am new to twin aircraft. Can anyone give me some advise on this model and what to expect. Especially if one engine cuts out.

Any advise -- please

Thanks

If one engine quits, cut the power on the other one. Especially if you are slow. There is a speed known as Vmc in full scale. It is the speed at which you loose directional control if one engine is full and the other is off, basically. If the plane is slow, you won't have enough rudder arm to compensate for full power only on one side. Keep the speed up and you will have less problem. If you are slow, pull the power, get the nose down and commit to land if you are low. It will save the plane. I was behind a guy one day that lost one and went full on the other. Went into a spin. I kept yelling "shut it off, shut it off". he finally did and pulled out just in time. should be a good plane. Let me know if that is enough power. I was thinking of using those engines but am going with .46 FXs.

Fly Boy

Thanks for the advise. I also saw one go in. It was an old Royal Kit. I would bet that the flyer did exactly what you describe and it was a disaster.

Thanks for the advise. I will definetly reduce power if one fails.

George

George:

So long as both engines are pulling, a twin is no harder, or easier, than a single of similar size, weight, and layout.

The Top Flight C-47/DC-3 is not the ideal beginner twin, but it can be handled.

You've heard it all before, so I'll just mention a few things.

LEARN TO USE THE RUDDER. Sport flying with most singles doesn't need the rudder, but on a twin of any size you probably wont get the bird down safely after an engine out without using the rudder to maintain yaw control.

Time the engine run on the ground. If they run clean for five minutes, then a hiccup, and another three minutes for a total of eight minutes, ignore the last three, figure on five, and plan to be back on the ground after no more than three or three and a half minutes. Give yourself a healthy safety margin. And you don't need to spend a lot of time in the air on your first flights.

Did I mention that you need to use the rudder?

A good part of your run time check needs to be spent with the nose of the plane pointed straight up, making sure it wont go too lean under accelleration and high alpha. And this is more critical toward the end of the run, as the fuel has to be pulled further as the level goes down.

Remember the rudder.

If you do lose an engine at cruise power, it wont be too bad. The plane will bobble. Chop the power, nose it down, slowly feed power back in, using the rudder to keep it straight. After you gain experience you will be able to turn into the dead engine, but for now don't think about it. Just scream "DEAD STICK!" and turn gently into the running engine to get back to the runway. If you have to make a 270 turn do it, it's much safer than a 90 into the dead engine. And get it back down.

And you'll need to use the rudder.

When you lose an engine at a high power setting things get interesting. The TF C-47 will be inverted before you realize you've lost an engine. But don't fight it, if you try to roll it back you'll put the plane into the ground. The offset thrust will fight you until the engine quits. And the engine wont quit until the plane hits the ground. What you have to do is continue the roll in the same direction, and no, its not the natural reaction, just keep it rolling until it's back upright. While you're finishing the roll pull the power back. Then you'll be upright, at a low power setting, proceed as I said for cruise power engine loss.

With a twin you'll find you have to move the left stick sideways fairly often, learn to do it. It's called "Rudder" control.

How about it, Twinman George? Anything to add? Or a reference to your twin flying series?

Use the rudder, it's neeed on a twin.

Hope this helps. Enjoy.

Bill,

PS: Did I say anything about the rudder? wr.

just remember NEVER NEVER NEVER turn into a dead engine, this applies to models as it does to real dc-3, i fly them both. dennis1943

Dennis:

I'll share a laugh with you, having C-47 time you should appreciate it.

I had a fellow tell me he had jumped right in a -47 and taxied it easily, maneuvered it handily, the very first time he got in the airplane. I really think he didn't even have any dual time in a single, much less a big twin.

Bill.

PS: When you get a fair amount of time in a full scale DC-3, or a fair amount of time with a model twin, you CAN turn into a dead engine. It just takes a bit higher skill level than turning the other way. wr.

bill,

know what you are talking about i am a certifier pilot for our club and you should hear some of the things that i am told with the models, i am also atp and cifi they can also tell some of the same stories, goodnight

godbless

dennis

GW....There's been good info put up here for you....but don't panic....just be vigilant.....keeping in mind a few things.....High wing-loaded airplanes create the biggest of problems for single engine performance...and most all the "Warbird" era planes are in this category unless they're the smaller ones......as Bill said ..your inverted before an instant.....I know from my own experience with my "Z" B-25...but if you are upside down...keep roll moving in the same direction til back to straight /level...reduce power and land immediately....but as a "General" rule these things happen so fast its more of a reaction than time to think it thru.....Altitude is your best friend with a twin....especially in the initial "learning" stages.......On T/O use shallow climbs and bank angles less than 30*.....On landing use a good descent rate and use power/rudder....keep bank angles below 30*.........DC-3/C-47..........has a history of tip stalling most notably with high wing-loading and slow airspeeds......Vmc was mentioned (velocity of minmum control) very difficult to compute for our planes....this is the speed at which the rudder/aileron will not compensate for single engine thrust ...with a spin to follow if power not reduced...As far as turning into"Dead" engine...not a problem provided that Vy is "honored".....meaning as long as your @/or above best rate of climb speed its not a problem ....Vmc and Vs speeds are below Vy...Have done that in numerous types of planes.....the only problem with our models would be trying to compute Vy....again difficult so in this case if you have the power reduced on the "descent" with an engine failure as long as the speed is good if a turn is necessary into the dead engine then it shouldn't be a problem......Good Luck.....Bill......

BillW:

Good looking B-25, or is it a PBJ? Looks more USN than USAAF.

And for any interested, listen to BillW. The B-25/PBJ has about the worst rep for crashing on engine loss. If he has survived with this plane his is indeed the voice of experience.

Bill.

Bill.....Thanx for your kind words.......I, like you spent alot of time around the "Piston Pounders'..........probably my most memorable in aviation......Yes,...The B-25 is a PBJ-1........taken from photos of several in the pacific........I used pictures and tried to be accurate in its colors/numbers,etc........I, like most of us have learned from experience......This is B-25 #2 as when B-25 #1 had the engine failure @ full power shallow climbing rt turn.......it was upside down right"now".......did continue the roll and reduced power.... got straight and level and pushed nose down for descent and to pick up some airspeed..........unfortunately when I landed the airplane was going away from me and it was hard to see for all the brush/etc....I ended up on a rockpile and even though it landed "flat"sustained huge damage....hence B-25 #2.......This brings me to another "Lesson" thats important when flying "Twins"its prudent to fly at a field that has "safe" areas for landing in case a problem occurs and a "forced' landing ensues......I won't fly a "twin" @ a field similar to the one that I had the incident.....My Home field has many acres of just plan grass.......leaving lots of options in case of trouble.....Pic of B-25 #1........Bill.....

The 46s will over-power the TF DC-3 somewhat, so fly accordingly: Don't goose throttle on take-off roll, IMMEDIATELY throttle back on OEI, and practice rudder control. You might also want to stick a cheap ($25) gyro to aid in rudder coordination.

- George

Definitely consider a cheap Gyro, I know there is a lot of opposition to them on this forum but they do help! At the end of the day, it's your pride and joy so why not give it every chance?

Stuart

WOW - you guys have been great. Thanks so much for all of this information.. Rudder/rudder/rudder and chop the power if one quits.

It is done in the Eastern Airlines design with Monokote to keep it as light as possible.

I expect the first flight to be in about one month.

Will try to post some pictures shortly.

Thanks again for all the information.

PS - Bill R. I will be sending the deposit for the Super Duellist soon. Working on models and my full size RV-4 has kept me away from my clerical duties.

George

GW...Whats the wing loading on your DC-3?........Bill....

The radio is not in yet. Probably going to use a 1100 mah battery.

Will weigh it with the radio and post.

George

Can't wait to see the pictures. I have to get mine out and build it. We just bought a full scale DC-3. Pretty cool plane. Can't wait to fly it after it gets re-furbed.

I have 30 Magnums installed on mine. They fly the model in a very scale manner. Would not go with any smaller engines. 8 3/4 lbs with Robart retracts. Did mine in R4D colors in Monokote. Having a type rating in this plane makes flying the model much more enjoyable. And maybe more survivable.

FlyBoy.....Full Scale...Sounds fun...got a few hrs in a "3"....Is it a "Pratt" powered or "Wright" powered?.....Wright has the "short" cowling and the Pratt has the "long" cowling......Good airplane and its plenty loud.......watch out for the "Hamburger" door....door on left side by prop.....If #1 is running and you open the door your instant Hamburger......Cruises @ 140 mph.......Rusgmil....Still not like the "Real" thing though is it?...Did you get a chance to fly a "Super" 3?........I worked on "3's" some yrs ago and thats how I ended up getting some time....changed a pair of engines and helped a guy recover the rudder and reinstall it......worth every second of work...........Bill......

BillW:

Many pleasant memories fo the -3, when I left Piedmont for the USAF we were just getting the first F-27 birds, the -3's were still "Front Line" aircraft. Ours were all Wright engined.

But the -3 didn't have a mean bone in her body. Just a truly nice airplane.

The exact opposite was the Constellation. Bite you in the butt in a heartbeat. Nastiest version was the 1649 with the turbo-compound R-3350 engines. Also known as the "World's Fastest Tri-motor."

Oh well...

Bill.

I own a Wright powered -3 and several models up to a 126". The Top Flight 3 has a wider chord and wash out at the tips. It also has larger tail surfaces. The full size 3 stalls at about 55 knots at the tips. With any power and a high angle of attack it will roll upside down. Because the rudder is hinged so far back you can also lock the rudder under certain conditions.

Flew jumpers in DC3 and 47s and I know about rudder lock. When on the jump run you would get heading corrections and you'd have to keep the plane level while changeing heading. Using to much rudder to keep it level would lock the rudder every time. No big deal once you knew it would happen. Sure scare the crap out of someone in the cockpit though.
And yes Warbirdz I did get a little time in a Super 3 and its not like the "real" thing but those days are long gone.
My favorite Gooneys had the two stage blowers. What a kick it was to get to about 10000 feet and switch to high blower and have all that throttle left. Don't remember if those were the Wrights or the PW-94s. Been a while.

This particular aircraft was restored to pristine condition around 1985 or so........

It was restored over in Winston/Salem @ the "Business Aircraft" hangar facility......Its now in Charlotte,N.C. at the Museum there ...I have many pictures and they've asked me for them....My next time up to CLT I'll bring them copies of all I have....Bill.....

BillW:

Good seeing those pictures. But the very first one has a Pratt sticker on the nacelle.

I don't think my memory is that bad, maybe we only had the Wright powered ones come into ORF, but that doesn't seeem reasonable.

Maybe the pictured one never was in service with Piedmont, but tricked out in Piedmont livery for the restoration?

Memory still says all ours had Wright engines.

Comment?

Bill.

Bill R.....Definitely Pratts....but I believe your correct...most all the civilian -3's were Wright powered although I believe UAL ordered theirs with Pratts........Most all the Military -3's (R4D's etc)...were Pratt powered....except for the Super -3which were Wright powered although I recall seeing one or two with Pratt R2000's...(same as DC-4)....I don't recall where the restored -3 was procured from....But "Tom Davis" was active in getting that project done.......Bill.........