Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
11-12-2010, 09:00 PM
#1
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Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
A couple of weeks ago, I sent in a blistering email to Tamiya about the totally inaccurate rendition of the Israeli M-51, which they call "super Sherman". Yesterday, I was pleased to receive a very nice response from Tamiya, substantiating everythihg that I had covered, and apologising for Tamiyas poor judgement. The tank is incorectly named, older and later M-51 parts are used, track stowage is wrong, they totally ignored the big travel lock at the back and it doesn't represent any particular M-51 from 1962-73.
Here is the reply;
Dear Mr. Campbell,
Thank you very much for your message. It is always a pleasure to hear from modellers around the world.
It is indeed a shame, there is no doubt about it. There were a number of different reasons behind the decision to produce the 1/16 R/C M-51 in that state and as you have already deduced, they were all marketing related. I want to make it clear that the product designers and the translators fought against these decisions, but in the end we were overruled.
Firstly, the name. We are fully aware that only the M-1 was given the moniker Super Sherman and that the IDF never gave this label to the M-50 or M-51. However, the Japanese people love monikers, especially those with easy to pronounce English adjectives. Considering how important the domestic market is to Tamiya, Super Sherman was therefore used as part of the product name for packaging and marketing purposes. Us translators asked for a compromise solution where Super Sherman would be deleted from the English name since it was not accurate. This was rejected on the grounds that M-51 by itself was not a very good product logo. Thuse all we could do was place quotation marks around Super Sherman to try and indicate that it was not an official name.
Secondly, the appearance/feature inaccuracies. Again, purely a marketing decision. As you have already deduced, the sales people wanted a new 1/16 R/C tank to promote, and the fastest and most low-cost method was to take the 105mm howitzer Sherman and give it a modified turret. Our product designers always conduct thorough research on each subject and were completely against this decision for the same reasons you mentioned. There were so many differences in the turret, hull, and accessory mounting details that the resulting model did not really match any M-51 that existed. However, as you had perceived, the sales folks decided that the "average Joe" would be taken by the decently impressive turret and gun barrel. This may or may not be true, but these same sales folks regrettably overlooked the fact that the customers who buy these complicated, expensive models are not exactly the "average Joe" off the street. Like yourself, these customers are probably long-time Tamiya supporters with other tank models in their collection and will likely be just as disappointed as you with the M-51.
I cannot stress enough that our product designers and translators had every intention to produce a respectable product that is up to Tamiya standards.
Unfortunately, it had turned out to be far from the case. To be completely honest, we are just as upset about this as you are. We wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments and can only apologize for releasing such a poorly executed product. There is no excuse for it, but what is done is done.
Again, we greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns with us here in Japan. Hopefully the sales people will take critiques such as yours to heart for the next product.
Sincerely,
International Division Staff
Tamiya, Inc.
....Seems we have people there are fighting to keep things authentic, and it may prudent for more of us to write in with out wants/dislikes.
[email protected]
Here is the reply;
Dear Mr. Campbell,
Thank you very much for your message. It is always a pleasure to hear from modellers around the world.
It is indeed a shame, there is no doubt about it. There were a number of different reasons behind the decision to produce the 1/16 R/C M-51 in that state and as you have already deduced, they were all marketing related. I want to make it clear that the product designers and the translators fought against these decisions, but in the end we were overruled.
Firstly, the name. We are fully aware that only the M-1 was given the moniker Super Sherman and that the IDF never gave this label to the M-50 or M-51. However, the Japanese people love monikers, especially those with easy to pronounce English adjectives. Considering how important the domestic market is to Tamiya, Super Sherman was therefore used as part of the product name for packaging and marketing purposes. Us translators asked for a compromise solution where Super Sherman would be deleted from the English name since it was not accurate. This was rejected on the grounds that M-51 by itself was not a very good product logo. Thuse all we could do was place quotation marks around Super Sherman to try and indicate that it was not an official name.
Secondly, the appearance/feature inaccuracies. Again, purely a marketing decision. As you have already deduced, the sales people wanted a new 1/16 R/C tank to promote, and the fastest and most low-cost method was to take the 105mm howitzer Sherman and give it a modified turret. Our product designers always conduct thorough research on each subject and were completely against this decision for the same reasons you mentioned. There were so many differences in the turret, hull, and accessory mounting details that the resulting model did not really match any M-51 that existed. However, as you had perceived, the sales folks decided that the "average Joe" would be taken by the decently impressive turret and gun barrel. This may or may not be true, but these same sales folks regrettably overlooked the fact that the customers who buy these complicated, expensive models are not exactly the "average Joe" off the street. Like yourself, these customers are probably long-time Tamiya supporters with other tank models in their collection and will likely be just as disappointed as you with the M-51.
I cannot stress enough that our product designers and translators had every intention to produce a respectable product that is up to Tamiya standards.
Unfortunately, it had turned out to be far from the case. To be completely honest, we are just as upset about this as you are. We wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments and can only apologize for releasing such a poorly executed product. There is no excuse for it, but what is done is done.
Again, we greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns with us here in Japan. Hopefully the sales people will take critiques such as yours to heart for the next product.
Sincerely,
International Division Staff
Tamiya, Inc.
....Seems we have people there are fighting to keep things authentic, and it may prudent for more of us to write in with out wants/dislikes.
[email protected]
11-13-2010, 12:08 AM
#2
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RE: Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
Great job!
Hope these honest product guys are given the authority to get their combined act together, do things right (like the founder, Mr Tamiya would do) and not just get fired for challenging the Tamiya marketing strokes; who seemed to have screwed things up!
Hope these honest product guys are given the authority to get their combined act together, do things right (like the founder, Mr Tamiya would do) and not just get fired for challenging the Tamiya marketing strokes; who seemed to have screwed things up!
11-13-2010, 12:18 AM
#3
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RE: Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
Methinks Tamiya pulled a "vertical intercourse' on this caper. Maybe Jimmy Doolittle should pay another visit.
We just have to tell them the way it is....come on HL, pick up the slack.
We just have to tell them the way it is....come on HL, pick up the slack.
12-04-2010, 06:11 AM
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RE: Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
Thumbs up to whoever wrote that response for Tamiya. I respect the fact they took the time to reply, and this appears to be a call for help.
If you are a Heng Long guy do your Tamiya friends a favor. Even if you weren't gong to be buying a Tamiya, write in and give these guys some ammo for the next Tamiya team meeting. The guy left nuggets of stuff to comment on. Something along the lines of always holding Tamiya tanks as the bench mark to measure others against. Explain the willingness to pay a premium for well researched and produced models. Explain that a decision like this has you wondering what is going on. If they are making so many compromises, they should at least acknowledge that fact with bottom basement entry level pricing, to entice new Tamiya owners. You could at least see some logic in that.( they might at least drop the price of this unit)
Maybe explain to them with the always improving Heng Long, and a decsion by Tamiya to be so inaccurate causes the difference between the two brands to diminish. If they are not careful they will be knocked off their perch, and if that should happen, the premium price they expect, just won't be tolerated by the market.
If Tamiya demands the premium they charge, they should be held accountable. This was obviously a marketing decision, so let marketing deal with the consequences. For this hobby I think it is important to write in and voice your displeasure. In a board room poor sales might be viewed as a lack of interest, and the marketing department could spin this. I.e claim their decsion was right to limit the money spent, as people just aren't interested in 1/16 scale tanks. We don't want that story spun. Make it painfuilly clear to Tamiya's marketing department that the reason you are not buying this tank is because somebody made a very bad decision. Explain to them that if they build an accurate Comet or Cromwell with the quality one expects from Tamiya you would spend your hard earned money on it. However you are not going to spend premium dollars on a rehashed inaccurate kit, that can only be viewed as a money grab.
If you are a Heng Long guy do your Tamiya friends a favor. Even if you weren't gong to be buying a Tamiya, write in and give these guys some ammo for the next Tamiya team meeting. The guy left nuggets of stuff to comment on. Something along the lines of always holding Tamiya tanks as the bench mark to measure others against. Explain the willingness to pay a premium for well researched and produced models. Explain that a decision like this has you wondering what is going on. If they are making so many compromises, they should at least acknowledge that fact with bottom basement entry level pricing, to entice new Tamiya owners. You could at least see some logic in that.( they might at least drop the price of this unit)
Maybe explain to them with the always improving Heng Long, and a decsion by Tamiya to be so inaccurate causes the difference between the two brands to diminish. If they are not careful they will be knocked off their perch, and if that should happen, the premium price they expect, just won't be tolerated by the market.
If Tamiya demands the premium they charge, they should be held accountable. This was obviously a marketing decision, so let marketing deal with the consequences. For this hobby I think it is important to write in and voice your displeasure. In a board room poor sales might be viewed as a lack of interest, and the marketing department could spin this. I.e claim their decsion was right to limit the money spent, as people just aren't interested in 1/16 scale tanks. We don't want that story spun. Make it painfuilly clear to Tamiya's marketing department that the reason you are not buying this tank is because somebody made a very bad decision. Explain to them that if they build an accurate Comet or Cromwell with the quality one expects from Tamiya you would spend your hard earned money on it. However you are not going to spend premium dollars on a rehashed inaccurate kit, that can only be viewed as a money grab.
12-04-2010, 06:36 AM
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RE: Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
Here is what I just wrote to them
I view this latest Tamiya 1/16 M51 Sherman release with disappointment. Thrown together and inaccurate, with a premium price being charged is almost insulting to the people who pay a premium price to own a Tamiya product.
Tanks like this get made in China, and sell for $100. For $100 people are willing to over look the inaccuracies, @ $700 they won’t.
Heng Long is producing a product that is continually improving. This decision by Tamiya is helping narrow the gap between the two brands. Why would Tamiya do this?????
I felt it necessary to comment on this, because I don’t want Tamiya to think that there isn’t any market for a 1/16 scale tank. I do not want the marketing department to claim victory in their decision as being wise to keep development costs low, as the interest in 1/16 tanks is not there. The reason this tank won’t sell well is because it is an inaccurate rehashed Sherman that Tamiya is charging a premium price for. If they were going to go this route they should have at least allowed the retail price to reflect it. i.e sell for about $300.
I own 20 1/16 scale RC tanks, and continue to buy more. However I will not be spending any money on this Tamiya release. Tamiya needs to produce and accurate British Comet or Cromwell, and build it with the quality we expect. DO this and your sales will skyrocket.
I hope someone at Tamiya is listening.
Sincerely
A devoted 1/16 tank modeller
Dan
Tanks like this get made in China, and sell for $100. For $100 people are willing to over look the inaccuracies, @ $700 they won’t.
Heng Long is producing a product that is continually improving. This decision by Tamiya is helping narrow the gap between the two brands. Why would Tamiya do this?????
I felt it necessary to comment on this, because I don’t want Tamiya to think that there isn’t any market for a 1/16 scale tank. I do not want the marketing department to claim victory in their decision as being wise to keep development costs low, as the interest in 1/16 tanks is not there. The reason this tank won’t sell well is because it is an inaccurate rehashed Sherman that Tamiya is charging a premium price for. If they were going to go this route they should have at least allowed the retail price to reflect it. i.e sell for about $300.
I own 20 1/16 scale RC tanks, and continue to buy more. However I will not be spending any money on this Tamiya release. Tamiya needs to produce and accurate British Comet or Cromwell, and build it with the quality we expect. DO this and your sales will skyrocket.
I hope someone at Tamiya is listening.
Sincerely
A devoted 1/16 tank modeller
Dan
12-12-2010, 06:50 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
RE: Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
Way to go YHR.....at least three of us have opened fire on them and from all appearances, we have people within the Tamiya network on our side. Maybe something will come of it. I just built an Israeli M-3 and am starting on another m-51. With the Tammy, I'd have just as much modelling work, outside of the turret.
01-17-2011, 05:40 PM
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RE: Tamiya M-51 Israeli Sherman
as a M51 it will make a real nice M50! [sm=omg_smile.gif] It does look like I would need to cut about half the muzzle brake off and get extra sprue sets to add the proper number of goodies [:@]
I have my first tank on order {Heng Long Pershing with all the metal goodies and Tamiya compatible IR} because it is HALF the price of the the current Sherman and close to a third of this one BUT I really want to add a Sherman to my collection and the Israeli color sure looks inviting [:-]
I have my first tank on order {Heng Long Pershing with all the metal goodies and Tamiya compatible IR} because it is HALF the price of the the current Sherman and close to a third of this one BUT I really want to add a Sherman to my collection and the Israeli color sure looks inviting [:-]
