I feel compelled to write about an error I see reported over and over again in my search for information about pz.abt 501.

The captured Tiger tank in Tunisia, number 712 is not the former 112. Despite obvious evidence that it is a 2nd Kompanie tank it's reported over and over as a the 112 and even today wears this mistaken turret number.

How do I know it's not 112? Here, take a look at the first two photos. Notice the gouge from a hit on the front plate above where the tow shackle mounts? A very unique identifier!

Because of the numbering system used when the 501st was absorbed into the 10th Panzer Division the 112 became the 724. Some say 112s serial number is 250012, that maybe so but it doesn't preclude a hull number. The 250011 was the 231 of the 2nd Kompanie completed to a later fitment then the 1st Kompanie tanks!

So what tank is it? Probably the 212 and I'm not sure. What is certain is that it's a 2nd Kompanie tank.

The 2 Kompanie tanks were completed after the 1st Kompanie and their track stowage box was mounted like all later Tigers on the leftside of the rear plate on a bracket. Examining photos of the 712 at Aberdeen confirm the mounts. 2nd Kompanie tanks had spare track link brackets mounted on their glacis plate not on the bottom of their rear hull plate. 2nd Kompanie tanks also mounted spare track links on the lower front plate but upside down compared to our models, they used two bars of metal going across the front to hold the links in place. The weld marks are still visible today where they once were. Of course everyone knows the 1st Kompanie mounted their headlights down low, it's impossible to do on a 2nd Kompanie tank because of the spare track brackets. Check out the photos below and tell me what you think.

Why the number changes? After the 501 was absorbed into the 10th PzDiv there was a reorganization after the debacle at Beja where 7 Tigers were knocked out. Then all the remaining 8 Kompanie tanks were absorbed into the 7th Kompanie of the 7th PzRgt and it appears not all were re-numbered. Some were because we have photos of two 833 tanks of the 8th Kompanie of the 7th PzRgt, one a Tiger and the other a PZIII.

So that's my theory and I believe it's pretty solid. Why would the museum in Munster not realize this?

Thanks for your thoughts !
This is what historic tanks makes so interesting - the search is the goal !

Towards the discriped tank I do have no knowledge ... but maybe this can help you:



[link=http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=3802&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=15]Here you will find more pictures[/link]

[link=http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=3802&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0]Here is the story about the tank[/link]

[link=http://dict.leo.org/]Translation Help ![/link]

Greetings

That's the tank I'm talking about. You can just make out the 8 underneath the 7 in that picture. The spare track links are still installed on the glacis plate. Also, they took the front mud guards from a 504 tank and installed them by this time. Right before shipping it back to the USA.

Really not my "field" the 112 - but I tried to translate [link=http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=3802&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0]the story[/link] into a short summary ... if you want to discuss your point - feel free to write in english in the linked forum - they will try to answer you !

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Tiger I "112", chassis number 250012, was the 3rd Tiger that had been unloaded in Africa - at the 23.11.42 in Bizerta at Tunis.


Tiger of the 2/ 501


At the 01.12.1942 had the Tiger 112, 124, 131 and 142 (together with 4 Panzer III N - 7,5 cm short) their first battle contact ( 3 hours) with tanks (Sherman, General Lee and M3 Scout Car) of the 1. US-PzDiv. 34 tanks were destroyed. No Tiger was lost.

At the 18.01.43 the 112 had his second deployment at Djebel Solbai - but there had been no real battle.

A big success for the 1./501 was the 19.01.43. The 1./501 made a push at Hamra and got 106 vehicles and 25 new cannons.
This day brought also the first problems for the Tiger - engine problems, that were solved by the mechanics till the next mornig.

In the morning of the 21.1.1943 the "fight group 501" reached the crossing Ousselteia-Kairouan, where soldiers of the infantry had notified a birtish tank crowd. 56 tanks of different types in a dip. 12 tanks attaked the 2. Zug 1./501 - after the shot of 3 of their tanks the british tanks went away.

In a battle in the night of the 22.01.1943 the 501 including Tiger 112 fought a british attack with tanks back. Tiger 112 got in this night a hit at the KWK that could be still seen. Own tanks losts happened not in that night.

After this time the 501 had been divided. The 1./501 came to Zaghouan and the 2./501 to Pout du Fahs.
The 1./501 came to the 10. Panzerdivision (PzRegt 7) as 7. schwere Kompanie (heavy tank companie).

At the 14.02.43 the campaign "Frühlingswind" was started - end at the 17.02.1943 . All Tiger of the 1./501 got new turret numbers - the „112“ became „712“ - the Tiger of the 2./501 became „8XX“, that were included to the 10. PzDiv as 8. schwere Kompanie.
The 1./501 had 1/3 of the success of 165 shot enimy-tanks.

At the end of February the 1./sPzAbt 504 with 11 Tiger had landed in Afrika. The last sign of "112" is in fights of the 504.

Tiger I „712“ - "112" had been found on the 21.04.1943 at Medjez-el-Bab - no crew. 112 went then from the British to the American.

------------------

Beneath the above mentioned hit at the KWK of Tiger 112, that still can be seen ... Just an idea - maybe the confusion about the number is caused, because Tiger 112 had been "cleaned" in 1944 !?! Maybe he got then the wrong 8XX and short time later the "correct" 712 !?!





Greetings

Thanks for the post, I've read that before and it has some errors. There was no Tiger with turret number 124, that would have been a PZIII. The photographic record does not support that 112 became 712. I think most of these posters regurgitate information read from books without doing a photo analysis as I have done.

I welcome any more information or debate over my contention that the 112 was the 724 and the Tiger now in Munster was from the 2 Kompanie.

Thanks Stern!

Since the time of this posting I've learned a couple of new things about Tiger's of the 501st. The last couple of Tigers belonging to the 2 Kompanie, including the 712 and 833 were completed with 1 piece track guards and the hinged front mud guards as seen on later tanks. I earlier surmised that these had been purloined off a 504 Tiger, they are original.

An interesting note is that the 712 to this day wears at least one of the early style 2 piece side mud guards. You can see it changing positions in various photographs over the years. Must have lost one and grabbed one from another tank.

Have also learned that 2 Kompanie tanks were all odd numbered. Even numbers went to the PZIIIs. Thus there was 211, 213, 221, 223, 231, 233, 241, 243 and a company commander numbered tank 200. No photographs exist of 200, 211 and 221. The 213 became the 813, the 223 and 233 were blown up together at Beja as 823 and 833 respectively. 231 was never renumbered, it was one of the first losses.

Examining photographs of 712 leads me to strongly consider that it might have been the 813. Either that or 811.

Some of the confusion about 712 being 112 comes from the fact that its instrument console came from the 112 which is serial number 250012. I've gotten my hands on some new photographs and you can just make out the serial number in 2 places, on the front plate and on the jack block. One of the first 2 tanks issued to the 501st was sent back to the factory 2 months after issue and presumably returned as we have photos of both 250011 (231 tank) and 250012 (112) tank in Tunisia. Somewhere along the way 250031 (712) must have gotten its hands on the panel.

There's tons of other detail items too, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask and please don't hesitate to contribute your knowledge to the topic! [sm=idea.gif]

I first saw Tiger 712 in 1955 inside the Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen when I was a teenager.I
I had my trusty Brownie Hawkeye camera, measuring tape, paper and pencile. Took several pictures and many measurements since I was going to make a model of her. She was in her original colors, and covered with ordnance shipping markings. I remember her colors as being
a grey with a very slight greenish tinge, not sand as most most North African vehicles. The ordnance markings were some yellow, some white. Unfortunately the pictures I took were in
black and white, I'll have to look for them. Anyway I hope she gets back to the USA soon!
[email protected]

This would be great! Was that when it was sitting next to the King Tiger? Do you remember seeing the previous turret numbers sticking through the paint underneath the 712?

The second photograph shows the tank in what appears to be 2 different colors. I know it'd been through a lot and could have been previous colors bleeding through at that point.

Do you know what kind and year car that is in the background? I used to know, memory is going quick!

Ok, sent the picture to my Uncle who knows cars as better then women! He said it's a 1972 Ford, either an LTD or Galaxie. So there goes my original paint theory!

Well , I found the pictures, only 6 small snapshots. Three of them show the interior. The left side hull and turret were cut open to view the interior at that time. She was displayed inside next to the TigerII. Other shots show suspension, sproket and roadwheels all closeups. One shot shows the front half of the right side hull and turret. Clearly shows the square armored
"patch" and the number 2. So much for the pictures.
For a really good history of 712 get a copy of "Tiger Without a Home" By Richard Cox, published by the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum Foundation, Inc. Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland 21005 $9.95. This is the difinitive history and covers shipment from Germany to
North Africa, battles, capture, shipment to U.S., evaluation, etc. etc. to 1995.
[email protected]

Thanks for looking would still enjoy seeing them if you get them loaded. I've been looking for that book on ebay. Is it still available at APG?

Yes, it is still available at APG, but you better hurry. Just send them a check and tell them what you want. I ordered mine just a couple of months ago. I understand their moving the Museum to Ft. Lee sometime fairly soon. The pics arn't worth posting. I don't know how anyway.
[email protected]

Thanks!

I want to clear up a couple of things, because a lot of research has been done since this was posted;

That's true. Also see 223 which had the thickened mantlet.


Actually the 2nd company commander's tank should have been "21", but to this day we haven't identified a photo of it. We have do photos of those other two Tigers now.
I'd also like to know what was commanding the 7th company after Beja? Should be "71".


It's more likely to have been "221" but we're still not sure.

David

I wonder where this slightly-wrong information comes from? We have excellent photos of Tigers on their way to that battle on that morning; you can even identify the exact spot in the road where the photos were taken;

But there is no Tiger 124, because it never existed. Instead we see here the company commander's Tiger "11".

David

The Tiger today is currently sitting disassembled in a warehouse in Fort Benning GA. a buddy of mine who lives near by took a few pics of it. All of the US museum tanks are being shipped there for storage until a large indoor building is built, many of the vehicles are awaiting restoration.



Lots of the tanks from Ft. Knox, and APG are there including the T28, the APG Jagdtiger, and ironically the King tiger that the Tiger I was parked next to in the 70's










As for the Tiger's background it was on outdoor display (like most of the APG tanks) for many decades, In the late 1990's it was sent back to germany to Munster and was restored in Germany and placed on display. Because it was a cutaway they restored both the exterior and the interior. They left it cut open, and was on indoor display for many years. Sometime in the mid to late 2000's it was shipped back to GA and has been in the Indiana Jones crate warehouse ever since.

There are two older videos on youtube (can't find them at the moment) where they are talking about the tiger tank and the have a crew sitting in the tank at their locations. this was filmed sometime in the early 2000's and the tank was still in Munster. There is also a air force news segment (again can't find it right now) when the tank was returned to the US, in it they are talking about the tiger, but are showing stock images of M46 pattons with "Tiger Faced" paint.

I'm reanimating this thread to announce that I am finally happy that I know the previous turret numbers of "712".

For years we were confused about it. Researchers (at TIIF.DE) identified all the Tigers of the 501 and ruled out all possible numbers for this tank except "21" and "221".

In the book "Tiger without a home" the author reports examining the tank closely and finding "a pair of twos" at the beginning of the turret number. He had no clear idea of the battalion's numbering schemes so it is encouraging that his findings are compatible with ours, after coming at the question from different directions.

But there was a puzzle; the central "1" digit in "712" was obviously older than the other digits. In fact we found a photo of the Tiger in Operation Ochsenkopf where this final "1" can be seen. The puzzle is this: the "1" was placed near the middle of the available space and it was impossible for a "pair of twos" to fit on its left.

Recently another wartime photo of this Tiger surfaced. It was numbered very clearly as "21". This 2 digit number was placed unusually far to the left, and the "1" in the photo is obviously the same painted "1" from the final number "712". The photo shows the left side of the turret, so we can be sure that neither side had room for "a pair of twos" before this "1".

So I come to this conclusion:

This Tiger was originally "221" (witness the "pair of twos" and the leading "2" being placed far over to the left of the space, on both sides, leaving enough room for two more digits).

Tiger "21", the company commander's Tiger, was the tank irreparably damaged on 31 January attacking Robaa (all other Tigers have been ruled out by researchers now).

Therefore our Tiger was selected as the new company commander's mount and its number was altered to "21", preserving the leftmost painted "2". The rightmost "21" was overpainted with a new "1" (witness the recently discovered photo).

For Operation Ochsenkopf the number was altered to "81" (witness the visible "8" in the USA photos, and every other identifiable tank of the 2nd company having its first digit altered like this.) Tigers of the first company did not alter their turret numbers at this time, by the way!

After Ochsenkopf, the remaining Tigers were consolidated into the 7th company, with all Tigers except the Stab Tigers getting new numbers that started with "7". So our Tiger became "712". (We also know that "111" became "71" at this time, the new company commander. Tiger 11 was lost in the battle. ).

In summary : 221 -> 21 -> 81 -> 712

David

David, thank you for correcting the historical record! This is an excellent post and even though I've long been out of action, your continued work is most appreciated!

You've probably seen the new book: 'The Research Squad: Tiger A Modern Study Of Fgst.NR. 250031' by Lee Lloyd, Brian Balkwill, & Alasdair Johnson.

It's over 200 pages of color pics of 712 taken apart and reassembled and shows practically every part/data plate.

Excellent detail book! Copies are on ebay or Amazon and I like my copy.

Mike (IF you can read this because the sidebar ad keeps taking over this thread!!!!)

I'm still looking at these photos for any more evidence. Better copies of the old photos have been published recently.
I still can't find any solid proof that the tank had "a pair of twos" in its number, as the writer states.
But I did manage to identify the location where a photo of "712" was taken. And, reading the history of the 501 and 504 battalions, there is only one occasion when they visited this particular place.
As a result of that, I can say with confidence that "712" was sent to Maknassy where it probably fought American forces. And it probably got its battle damage (missing smoke launchers) in that fight.
In fact, it seems that the Maknassy battle was fought largely or entirely by the survivors of 501, not by the newly arrived crews of 504.

David