This is why I tell people to get a minimum 8 channel compuyter radio. Not that it can't be done with 7 or even 4, but the minor difference in price (like $59 between 7cap and 9cap, and the 9cap comes with a R149DP receiver vs R138 with the 7cap) is meaningless compared to the features. Use one feature 1 time like ailevators and the transmitter paid for itself.

TF

Except I already have the 7CAP so it isn't a difference of a few dollars it's a new transmitter. If I can prove it's the MSA10 then I'll internally reverse one of the elevator servos ("Love the smell of solder in the morning...") I'd love a 9CHP (flie heli's too) but, it isn't in the budget right now. Could be real quickly though. I can't get any of the servos to glitch. Pull pull wires are run straight, elevator wires are tied to starboard side, antenna is tied to port side. Nothing is rubbing that I can see. I'm going to have to strip away a large area of the bottom fuse covering to do some repairs, so I'll be able to get a good look from a different perspective. I think I've got to get it back together and ground test it to death. Out of town for the next week so it will have to wait. Thanks again for everyone's input.

Bill Gavin

Uh HUh. Problem a lot of us have. Get into the hobby with a standard 4 challel "learner" radio & when it is time to move up we look wistfully at the nice 9-10 channel radios & wonder why we would ever need something like that & wind up going for a nice 6 or 7 channel instead. Its not until sometime later that we realize the limitations of the mid-range radios have nothing to do with the number of channels. I really thought the 7cap had most of the mixing functions of the 9C though, my mistake. Good to know though as I was considering one of those for my son. I guess I will just have to get him a 9C instead. Bill, I have a 9CHP myself. Don't fly helis but I thought I might one day. One of the things I really like about it is the smooth left stick. When I let other people fly one of my planes with it they are always asking if something is wrong with it but after flying with it a while they all like it better too. The ratchet on plank radios is a detriment if you ask me.

In reply to cstevec.

Glad to hear you like your 9CHP. I have really been eyeing one for awhile. Just hate to have to trim everything in the fleet all over. I agree about the ratchet on the left stick. I took my old 4 channel, flipped the metal tab over and have been using it on the simulator. It is smoother than my Futaba. I tried to mix channel 2 and 7 for elevator on the edge and the two halves didn't move equally. Thus the MSA10.

FWIW the 9C is probably the best deal for the money out there right now. I usually tell the new guys that I meet that are asking questions to get one because you actually save money since you won't have a 6-7 channel sitting in the box after you finally give in and buy the 9. So far I have not found a set up that I could not get working the way I wanted it to with the 9C. I would like a bit more capability at times but the 9C has been so flexible that there is usually a way to get everything working.

IF I had it to do over, knowing what I know now, I would get a JR 9303. The 9303 is very similar to the 9C but has all of those little extras I wish the 9C had. Those extras in my case are programmable 9 point mixes. Once you start using them and seeing the power they offer to fine tune your models they really become a necessary thing to have. The 9C has 5 linear and 2 5-point mixes (3 if you consider the throttle-needle mix) and that is enough for most set ups.

Unfortunately the 9303 is about $150-200 more than the 9C so it's not in my game plan right now.

Shogun, you are a closet FUTABA Traitor! To tell you the honest truth. Hind site really is 20-20. I bought the 9CHP as my second radio & a year later I was buying a 9Z. I told the guy behind the counter if I didn't have so much invested in Futaba I would just chuck it all and go with Jr. The 9303 is nice, some guys have even sold their 10X and bought the 9303 instead.

These days I look at the 14MZ but that is a radio I can't justify. And the price! Whew!

I remembered that my wife had shot some video of the first two flights and took a look at it at lunch today. I was hoping to be able to actually see which control surface was deflecting. Not able to yet. What is amazing is how violent the rolls to the right are. Level flight and then boom, level out, sudden right again. Then I start porpoising a little because I had lost altitude during the rolls. Too me it is obvious when I went from calm to puckered. There's a segment where you can see the same thing three times in row as I slowly worked the thing back to the field. I only saw one hard roll left which was me over compensating. Nowhere near as sudden as the rolls right. Then on final approach, low rates, throttle at idle, the video shows the plane at about 20 feet coming in nice and level. The camera bobs down for about 1/2 second and the plane is out of the picture. When it comes back in it is in knife edge, right wing vertically down, dropping fast. At the very end I get it level just before impact. The crunch on the video is as sickening as the real thing. Next week we are going to try to download the video to a laptop and go through it frame by frame, though I'm afraid the deflection occured just when the plane was out of the picture. Interesting to watch.

Who...me? [8D]

LOL I never said I was gonna get rid of my 9C though! I really only have 2 airplanes that could really use the power of a radio like the 9303 so I'll definately be keeping the 9C......for my foamies anyway!

I had a 46 sized SU 31 that had a bad habit of rolling right made me nuts for about a week one day i was flying it pretty hard and neer where i was standing and it did this. To my surprize i heard a buzzing noise after several passes i herd i more and more every time i herd it it rolled right on the turn to final it did it at a much lower speed and i almost went into the weeds. when i landded it i found the covering had come loose on the leading edge. with no wind it laid flat on the wing and you couldnt see it even when powered up the prop wouldnt blow it back but when you pulled on the elevator in a turn or to climb out it would peal back and that disruption in the air flow would stall that wing. Ive seen other planes crash due to the seem being on on neer the leading edge check your covering iron it often.

I finally got the plane repaired and took it out yesterday, determined to ground test it to death. First test was with original configuration. I stood by the plane while my buddy paced out with the transmitter (probably 250 feet, maybe more). We used handheld radios to talk. With engine running, antenna collapsed, there were no glitches and he could control all surfaces. Still not trusting the thing (it ground tested fine with the R138 before) I switched to a PPM receiver. As luck (bad?) would have it, I used the Futaba R127DF. The rudder and right aileron started intermittently twitching even before I started the engine. Other channels would glitch, but not as often. Right aileron would move up and rudder would move to the right _ gee, that could cause a roll to the right! Unplugging the JR8611 stopped all glitching. Needless to say, I did not fly. We tried using a 4.8v pack to run the receiver and the problem still occured.

I started searching on threads about the 8611 and found this:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_29..._1/key_/tm.htm

It appears that there is a recognized problem with Futaba receivers and SOME other brands of digital servos. The sub-thread on post #37 provides a wealth of detailed information.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_20..._1/key_/tm.htm

I am still sifting through all this and trying to decide what to do next. I wanted to post this here for anyone else who might wind up using a similiar combination of electronics. Thanks to all that provided advice.

Bill Gavin

Did some checking at lunch. All extensions appear to have gold plated contacts. Load test on batteries - under a 1.2 Ohm load each battery delivered 4.96 amps or better. Measurements made with a Fluke 77III multimeter. With all other servos disconnected and the 8611 connected directly to the receiver (no extension) intermittent, violent twitching occurred sporadically. Receiver was the Futaba R127. These twitches are brief, certainly less than one second, probably less than one half second in duration. More and more, I am zeroing in on the 8611 as the source of the problem. I don't understand why I haven't seen it while using the R138, which was in the plane during the initial problem. Perhaps the PCM receiver is able to ignore the sporadic impulses most (but not all?) of the time.

I think your correct in that assumption. A PCM reciever will hold a position even though there is a problem, masking the fact that there is a problem inthe first place. Now if the problem is actually in the servo itself this theory wouldn't hold water. If there is an intermittent contact in any of the connection the servo(s) will twitch, even if they are being controlled by PCM as the problem is downstream, so to speak.

If you have any friends that have a spare Hitec receive you might give one of those a try and see if it makes a difference, couldn't hurt. I personally hate 127DF's as they have been the worst I have used when it came to unexplained glitching. Once you get the set up to prove to be quiet electrically then put the PCM back in the plane.

I have 2 gassers both with identical setups..5 8611's 1 811 and 1 3004..both setup with 7ch Futaba PPM RX and 9C TX..engine on is 95-100' before a minor glitch..With my 9ch PCM RX I stopped walking at 500'...I have over 150 flights and the only time I got a glitch was when my landing gear lock nuts loosend up and starting vibrating on the aluminium plate..I put lock washers under them with some blue loctite and havent had a problem since..

I don't intend to use the R127 receiver for actually flying the plane, though several have used it without problem. I used it to ground check because it was the only available PPM receiver I had. Clearly it does not like the JR8611a, or the 8611a does not like the R127. However, my original problem occurred with the R138 (PCM) receiver. From everything I have read there is a definate problem with SOME Futaba receivers and SOME other brands of DIGITAL servos. I'm trying to narrow down what works with what. The Hitec digitals seem okay, I just want to make sure they're not borderline and waiting to bite me. The simplest (though not necessarily the cheapest) solution would seem to be replacing the 8611 with a high torque digital Futaba servo. Meantime it is worth discussing this so others don't waste money, time, planes and safety on a set up that doesn't work. I have ruled out a bad connection issue - the problem occurs with the 8611 plugged directly into the receiver and NOTHING else plugged in except the two batteries (or one battery, or a different 4.8v NiCad battery). I have e-mailed JR Product Support with a question about the problem. We'll see what they have to say. I don't necessarily expect every manufacturers product to be compatible with every other manufacturer, but it would be nice to know which ones to avoid mixing.

Bill Gavin

Now that is wierd cause I used the same RX to range before putting the PCM in and the EXACT same surfaces glitched on BOTH of my planes as well!

Hey Joe,

Strangely enough, that is good to hear. I knew there was some kind of radio/electronic problem, but until it is found, I feel like people will say, "I didn't have that problem, must be this guy screwing up". I like your Avatar - gotta figure out how to do one of those. Gonna go search Tower Hobbies for a high torque Futaba servo just in case. Really want to fly this thing soon.

Bill Gavin

When I started to read your thread I wasn't surprised to read that you have a HiTec 5645MG servo installed in your aileron. I had a similar problem with a 5645 that manifested itself ONLY after being powered up for 30 minutes or so. Servo started moving all over the place on it's own. I returned the servo to HiTec and they fixed it saying it had a BAD AMPLIFIER. I didn't loose a plane because of it because the problem showed up during setup in the shop.

I highly recommend that you turn your system on and leave it on for at least an hour on the ground moving the servos wit the transmitter every so often. If it checks good the servi should be good in the air.

I posted a thread in the transmitter/receiver/servo forum regarding this occurance with the 5645 MG. Therad is titled "Hi Tec 5645mg fails during installation" . I'd give you a link to it although I can't figure out how to do that. I guess the easiest thing to do to read that thread is to click on my login "twistawrecka" and ask to see my last 50 post's, you'll find it there.
Hope this helps!

Twistawrecka,

Probably a good idea, but I'm seeing the glitch with just the 8611 connected. Not saying the 5645's are perfect, but they can't affect what they aren't connected to (God, I hope not!). Still, I'll give that a try when I resolve the 8611 issue.

Gavin

Bill,

In my opinion, toss the PCM. In my fleet of 25+ gas powered reserch planes, I NEVER run PCM. PCM hides too much. I lost a couple of planes to PCM hold a few years ago and then I decided to toss the PCM. I have not lost a plane since to rx interference problems since. I use exclusively FMA receivers (Quantums) which I have found to be the best on the market for rejection of off frequency interference. We require a robust RX because we also carry a 1.5 watt 400 mhz tx on board the planes. In our application, Airtronics, Futaba, Hitec and JR just could not deal with the 1.5 watt TX onboard.

Elson

Elson,

That is interesting. I've sort of been debating that issue myself. It's great to set a plane up on PPM, declare it to be interference free, switch to PCM and go fly. What happens 10, 20 or 50 flights later when a problem has developed that the PCM is masking? Unless you range check with PPM before every flight you really don't know if something has changed. I know that getting the initial set up right is probably the hardest part, but there is always the chance that something has loosened up, worn out, etc.. I'll check out those receivers.

Thanks,
Bill Gavin

Bill,

I have read your thread all the way through, and although I don't have a definate solution, I'd like to pass along some thoughts;

Way back when I was still using Futaba gear I tried using some JR 8411 servos with a Futaba PPM receiver and transmitter. I don't recall the model number of the receiver, but it was not possible at all to use the JR servos with the Futaba (ppm) receiver. Glitched all over the place. This has happened with a few other people in the past, but it is and was not a common problem. Since I wanted to use digital servos all the time I switched over to JR equipment only because at the time JR had a larger selection of servos compatible with what I wanted to do.

OTH, I lost a brand new Edge to a new 5945 servo when it went nuts on the third flight (total time on the servo less than 20 minutes), bouncing as fast as it could go from end to end of high rate travels. I just wasn't good enough to keep up with the darn thing. Later I probably would have lost a brand new Extra on the first flight to another brand new 5945 if it had waited to lock up until after the plane took off. As it was the problem was caught on the ground. By no means should this be interpreted to mean that alll 5945 servos are bad. I still believe that may have been a issue with a quite a few back then, but doubt that the issue continues today.

Personally, I use a PPM receiver to set up a plane, and when any and all issues are located and corrected I then install a PCM receiver for flight to provide better outside interference rejection. Setting up using only PCM has the ability to mask problems that would be found immediately with a PPM receiver, later causing a crash when the problem that had been masked becomes strong enough not to be rejected. I set all my fail safes to neutral except the throttle, which is set to fail safe to a high idle. The decision to use PPM or PCM is personal one and can be influenced by several factors. The ultimate choice has to be made by the individual based upon what they like or dislike about either one.

It's entirely possible that a PCM receiver may have been able to reject some of the glitching, and that some of it may have been strong enough to pass through, ultimately causing the crash of your plane.

Pat

Hey,
I am sorry but where do some of you guys come from??? I have the same Edge with a DA 50 and its ass kickin.....I have Always said...after 15 plus years of flying some always want to fly more than they are capable of ...SORRY
Regards

What in the world are you talking about? [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] This thread is about eliminating interference problems..not about how the Edge flies!!

I have a bit better than twice that amount of R/C flying time. I suppose that would mean that I must be hopefully lost[8D]

We are combinatively attempting to locate and resolve an issue that caused the crash of a new plane, hoping to prevent a recurrance in the future. With luck, your exalted experience and knowledge will be of some assistance. So Grasshopper, please enlighten us.

Pat

[>:]LOL. I'd like to see 32hybo and his 15 years experience fly his edge when it rolls violently right every three seconds...