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  1. #1
    ProBroJoe's Avatar
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    Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Hey all,

    I received the plans for the HM-8 today. They're pretty well drawn, and apparently there was a construction article in a RC Model World publication back 1995 as the seller was kind enough to include a copy!

    I spent a long time staring at the plans, and the more I look at 'em, the more I'm thinking that I'll be able to build the plane just as designed and get away with putting the G-Mark .12 Twin on it. I'm a little concerned with the 3 ounces of extra weight up front, but since the designer claims it has the potential to come out tail heavy if you're not careful, I'll just take less care in that area.

    So whatta ya'll think - am I crazy to think that I can just build it at this scale and run the .12? It is a fairly good size model for an .049 with a 44" (or 50" optional) wingspan.

    Oh, here are some engine weights for comparison:

    Cox .049 Black Widow: 2 1/4 oz.
    G-Mark .12 Twin: 5 1/4 oz.
    OS .10 FP w/muff: 5 1/2 oz.
    OS .10 FP w/o muff 4 3/8 oz.



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  2. #2
    lildiesel's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    I like the HM-8 much better than the Pou du Ciel. Less of a flying joke, yet still cartoonish enough to appeal to my warped sense of aesthetics. You can find some pictures and original drawings at http://jolly.roger.free.fr/ -- as miscellanies on this Pou du Ciel site.

    I'd go with the G-Mark twin for the cuteness factor and at least making your nose weight functional. It should haul your plane around almost as well as a Black Widow.

  3. #3

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    It's got a short nose and a lot of junk in the trunk - why add useless weight when you can add looks. The twin would look great in there.
    the "other" andrew
    I'm not older than dirt, but I can remember when it was patent pending

  4. #4
    combatpigg's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    PBJ, I would go with the .12 and the bigger span. I think it would look good with transparent blue and green covering on the flying surfaces.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  5. #5
    Moderator BMatthews's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Given that the design was intended to fly with the 049 slogging along with an 8 inch prop on the engine And that you're going to be using the .12 with a more normal size for that I'd have to agree that you could easily and SHOULD make it a little larger to avoid it coming out overpowered. But it will only need a little increase. It'll depend on the wing area presently but I'd say that a bump in size to generate up around 400 to 440 sq inches would be a good way to go. That'll ensure you retain the "powered glider" performance level but with a little care you should be able to keep the weight down to around 2 to 2.25 lbs. It IS pretty much a free flight model after all.

    I sure liked the looks of that version with the engine mounted on the birdcage like mount in the other Gmark thread. I'd seriously be looking at converting this model over to that style of nose. For the mount I'm wondering if you could silver solder it from a heavier wall brass tubing. Like the 1/4 inch stuff used in some plumbing fixtures. Or if you could find some small aircraft chrome moly tubing.

    FOUND IT! Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. 3/16 seamless chromoly tubing with .028 wall. Silver solder together using a MAPP gas torch. Oh heavens.......

    http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/me/steel.html
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Neat project, PBJ. Very classic. The twin should add a lot of style and class to the plane.
    Tee Bee

  7. #7
    ProBroJoe's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Oh, darn you Bruce - you're not going to make this easy on me, are you?

    As is, the model can be built with a 50" span, and with a 7 1/4" chord that gives around 360 sq. in. IF I could build it 28-32oz, I'd have a wing loading around 11-12 oz/sq ft - not bad. The G-Mark only spins a 7x4 in the low 13's, and it does have a throttle, and, and... I really was hoping to avoid the re-engineering, and get away just building as - is. A 110% model would give me 55" span, almost an 8" chord and 440 squares - right at your magic number... but what do I do about the odd material sizes?

    I do like the built-up engine mount, but with the little time that I have to build, it would be another complexity that would slow things down, way down. (But man, it would be just the ticket wouldn't it?) Decisions, decisions...

    Oh, CP's right on the covering choice - a model like this needs some transparent covering to show off the structure, but blue and GREEN? [:'(] Nah, maybe opaque white and transparent blue. [8D]

    I'll hit Office Depot this weekend and see what it would take to bump this up 110-125%, but I'm not making any promises.

    Thanks for your support guys - I think.

    -Joe

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    There is quite following of the Pou du Ciel of which the HM-8 is family member. I have always thought the Flying Flea a neat design and once built an Ebenezer version of one from a plan I found - might have even been a Steigler plan.

    Anyways, I think the HM-8 is nicest looking one of the bunch and the nicest looking full size one I have seen is (or rather was) a Swiss registered HM-8 HB-YEI - wings looked like they were clear doped linen with dark red / maroon leading edge and the fuselage was a dark red / maroon / mahogany and yellow or gold colour; very sharp looking indeed.

    Pictures here: http://www.avion.ch/hm8/images.htm

    So, if it were me - use the G-mark (although I have PAW 1.49CC that would fit the bill rather nicely), perhaps enlarge it perhaps not, cover with a fabric or silkspan (in fact I would use silkspan or silk over mylar) - clear dope the wing (with a slight tint of cream to get the off white look) and maroon like HB-YEI. If were me of course.

    Now you got me thinking of whipping together an Ebenezer HM-8, would that then be a Pou de Ciel-enezer !?!

    cheers, Graham

  9. #9
    Moderator BMatthews's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.


    ORIGINAL: ProBroJoe

    Oh, darn you Bruce - you're not going to make this easy on me, are you? ........
    Easy? WHat's that???????

    ORIGINAL: ProBroJoe

    The G-Mark only spins a 7x4 in the low 13's, and it does have a throttle, ......
    -Joe
    I had no idea that this was all it would do.

    OK, you win. 360 sq's isn't that bad. As long as the engine looks "scale" to the plan then go for it.

    The wood usually isn't where the weight comes from. Generally it's the hardware that can add on the avoirdupois quickly. But stick to lighter grades and plan on using something light for covering and go that extra mile to get lighter hardware and it should be practical to hold it to 24 to 28 oz.

    If you're going to use functional rigging then a LOT of the need for our classical structural strength ceases to be an issue. Wing spars can then be made quite a bit lighter. Also the center A frame wing mount can be done quite lightly but you still want some good flexibility in there, Not for flight loads but for twisting and "arrival" loads. Carbon tubing would be a very good choice for this. And the wing mount only needs to locate the wings rather than withstand all the bending loads since the flying and landing wires will take care of that.

    I still need to dig out that wire. I'll make it a point to look for it tonight and let you know. But even if it turns out that my wire is all twisted and shot Brodak has control line sets. But let me check my parts box first.

    I'd also suggest that you alter the airfoil to round that nose a little. Sharp nose shapes like that one are often known for having a harsh and abrupt stall.

    I'm not sure what the wood sizes are that they call for. A good indicator that it SHOULD be quite light is the fact that it was intended for .049 and Scale Texaco flying. The rules called for a minimum 8 oz/sq ft loading. I'll bet it can be built pretty close to that and then you just add the Gmark. But pick that wood carefully so it hits the mark. With some superhuman care it may even come out at 10 oz/sq ft.....

    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  10. #10
    tangerine-jack's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Don't forget that you will gain structural strength from the covering materials also, so don't bang your head around too much on the wood sizes. Keeping the hardware light will go a long way to better flying BUT don't expect any heart pounding aerobatics with that parasol wing.

    This plane will fly very well as drawn, so don't try to make it something it's not. These pioneer designs are limited in what they will do. Any chance of duping the plans and sharing with your balsa brothers? I'd sure like to build something like this myself.

  11. #11
    lildiesel's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    How about an opaque cream for the fuselage, fin, and stab with a translucent blue for the wing, rudder, and elevator? Blue accent lines on the fuse and other cream surfaces.

    ORIGINAL: ProBroJoe

    Oh, CP's right on the covering choice - a model like this needs some transparent covering to show off the structure, but blue and GREEN? [:'(] Nah, maybe opaque white and transparent blue. [8D]

    Thanks for your support guys - I think.

    -Joe

  12. #12
    Moderator BMatthews's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Tranluscent yes. Transparent? PLEASE NO! ! ! ! While clearly transparent looks nice on modern gliders and stuff old classic designs really need a "privacy glass" like translucency so they don't end up looking like flying fishbowl's.

    Something like Litespan with the fibers in the material would be excellent. And for a color scheme I'd say keep it simple since the lines of the model will be entertaining enough. Some fake registration letters rather than numbers to show it's European heritage would be nice. Something like F-PBJF would be a good fake French registration with the first F being for France and then you need 4 letters to fill it in. On the fuselage I'd keep it simple so the structure showing through can be seen with less "clutter".

    With a little care this thing will be very "Lazy Bee" like.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  13. #13
    ProBroJoe's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    BMatthews:
    I had no idea that this was all it would do.
    What? Didn't you see the "after Bruce" video in the G-Mark thread? [X(]

    BMatthews:
    OK, you win. 360 sq's isn't that bad.
    Oh thank you! I really didn't want to mess with scaling it up and substituting materials, and wonder what wood sizes should go where, etc...

    The twin is a given, and I think even at the current scale it will look right at home. I got to thinking about mounting the engine up high on a fab'd mount, but what would I do for a fuel tank? It's not like I could run gravity feed with a wing tank! As is, I'll probably mount the engine "inverted" with the carb pointing down, and exhausts up. I'll make some exhaust diverters from aluminum tubing or the like to direct the exhaust outward and back. Unfortunately I can't simply flip the exhausts on the G-Mark around because they're "keyed"....

    BMatthews:
    If you're going to use functional rigging then a LOT of the need for our classical structural strength ceases to be an issue.
    Yep, that's the plan - or why bother building the model at all?

    BMatthews:
    I'd also suggest that you alter the airfoil to round that nose a little.
    The author did say that he had rounded the leading edge because the original airfoil was very sharp - do you think it needs more?

    tangerine-jack:
    This plane will fly very well as drawn, so don't try to make it something it's not.
    Any chance of duping the plans and sharing with your balsa brothers?
    Oh, this is the type of Sunday Flyer I'm looking for, something to putter around the pea patch, and drag the wheels through the grass - I have other models to fulfill the other needs.

    Although I would love to see others build this model, I couldn't give out or sell copies of the plans - the rights belong to the folks at See Temp (www.seetemp.com), and I especially wouldn't because of how well I was treated. Fred was kind enough to go out of his way to get a me copy of the plans the day before he left for his 3 week trip to the WRAMS show. Heck, he even sent the plans before he received payment from me! I hate to turn down a fellow modeler like this, but I hope you all understand. Drop Fred a line when he gets back from WRAMS and tell him Joe sent ya!

    BMatthews:
    Tranluscent yes. Transparent? PLEASE NO! ! ! !
    Ooooops, my bad. I don't know what I was thinking! I agree, crystal clear colored coverings aren't for this model. However, the only covering experience I have is with the iron on plastics... there's a first time for everything I guess. On the other hand, I'm a looooong way from covering and scheme choices.

    There is progress though. Office Depot was able to make me a working copy of the plans for about $8 ($.49 / sq.ft.) which I'll use to make my templates from.... (This would make an awesome laser-cut kit!)

    Thanks for all the support guys!

    -Joe




  14. #14
    Moderator BMatthews's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    I'd be against rep'ing the plans. They are available and the designer deserves to gain something for his efforts. Please just buy them from the supplier.

    Joe, I saw the vid but it's an engine spinning a prop. It didn't indicate what the performance was.... or wasn't... You probably did say what it was doing but some nights I tend to flash over some of the posts just to move on to some other area. Life as a mod is tough.... All that responsibility to keep the WWW safe for wandering 1/2A'ers....
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  15. #15
    ProBroJoe's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    BMatthews
    Joe, I saw the vid but it's an engine spinning a prop. It didn't indicate what the performance was.... or wasn't...
    What??? The second video I linked to shows the engine idling at about 5,000 RPM, and throttling decently up to about 13,300...

    ProBroJoe
    More good news - I finally got around to firing up The Twin since the rebuild. It actually hand starts fairly easy - providing you can supply enough current to the two glow plugs. I had to have my power panel cranked all the way up - which would blow a plug should the other accidentally become disconnected - happened twice, once on the original Glo Bee flat wound plugs, and once on a brand new OS A3s... I then switched to some Hanger 9 idle bar plugs which took less current to light and were more forgiving of oopsies. I lost almost 1,000 RPM over the Glo Bees, but the idle and throttle response was pretty good. As expected, this engine is no powerhouse as it only spins a MAS 7x4 scimitar at 13.250 RPM (14,000 on the glow bee plugs), but it's idle is pretty darn reliable and it's very user friendly. I shot a short video today which tells the tale. Check it out: http://home.comcast.net/~jbwebst/gmt.wmv
    But hey, I didn't come here to nit-pick, I just wanted to share some progress. It's been a little slow going.... OK, it's been a lot slow going, but hey, it's going. I'm really limited on space to work right now and am forced to work with an X-acto and straight edge - not too fun when working with lite ply (no power tools here). I'll most likely make the firewall out of 1/8" aircraft ply since I am going up with the engine weight and forces, but I think the rest of the airframe will be OK. A lot of the forward section is lite ply and should hold up well - the twin is a real smooth runner.

    I'm debating on whether I should build a flat wing and add ailerons (as the original had) or just build it as a rudder-elevator model. Also, I think the G-Mark is a nice fit on the firewall, and if you look closely at the second picture, you can see the outline of the Cox reedie along with it's dummy cylinder. Funny how the G-Mark fits within those confines....

    -Joe

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  16. #16
    Moderator BMatthews's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Sorry Joe. I must plain missed the performace numbers. Some days I just flip through the posts as part of the mod duties rather than reading all the stuff in depth.

    In these latest pictures the engine looks to be very inscale with the size of the model. I'm looking forward to seeing this one go and I'm going to order up a set of the plans for myself. Sadly in some eyes mine will have an electric motor hidden in the dummy twin. Or perhaps it's time to run in my own Gmark twin.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  17. #17

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    I was following this thread, nice looking aeroplane with some character. I saw an HM-8 drawing on fLea bay. it was the RC Modeller design together with a copy of the build article and an OS 10 R/C glow.

    I won the bid in UK for £20.00 approx $42.00 seems a pretty good buy. I have three of the G-MARK flat twins, 2 NIB so the choice seems obvious.

    I won't start for some time, just waiting to see how your build goes.



    old git - - - - aka John L.

  18. #18
    ProBroJoe's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    John, was this a fairly recent auction? Is there any chance you can post the item number? I'd just like to have a peek out of curiosity's sake... 42 USD does indeed sound like a pretty good deal - I woulda jumped on it, that's for sure! I hope you and Bruce do decide to build one, and of course power it with the Twins! Stick the OS .10 back on the Bay and recoup most (if not all) of your outlay!


    There just so happens to be a little progress on the build... maybe it will entice ya'll to start a building frenzy!


    -Joe
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    ORIGINAL: ProBroJoe

    John, was this a fairly recent auction? Is there any chance you can post the item number? I'd just like to have a peek out of curiosity's sake... 42 USD does indeed sound like a pretty good deal - I woulda jumped on it, that's for sure! I hope you and Bruce do decide to build one, and of course power it with the Twins! Stick the OS .10 back on the Bay and recoup most (if not all) of your outlay!


    There just so happens to be a little progress on the build... maybe it will entice ya'll to start a building frenzy!


    -Joe
    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN:IT&ih=014

    What a struggle I have had to edit this and provide a link, now I know HOW to do it.

    r/c model plan +engine LOOK ??? (330213172465)

    Winning bid: £15.40
    Ended: 28-Feb-08 20:47:53 GMT
    Postage costs:
    £3.99

    It looks to me as if the structure NEEDS bracing wires. Mind you, nearly all my models are closely related to a brick built outhouse (with similar flying characteristics)

    I still have a few years of RC Modeller, I couldn't believe that it had gone.


    old git - - - - aka John L.

  20. #20
    ProBroJoe's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Thanks for the link, John. Sorry for the trouble, but as you say, at least now you know how to do it!

    That's the same construction article that accompanies my plan, so yes, the design requires all of the bracing wires. It all looks intimidating at first, but once you dive in, it all starts making sense - it helps to have the article, but I don't think it's a necessity.

    I plan on building the extended (50") wing model, and perhaps I'll add ailerons too. Although there's no published weight, I'm hoping to keep mine around 24-28 ounces - if it looks like it'll come out light, I'll add the ailerons.

    Again, thanks for the link...

    -Joe

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Ailerons would be SO nice -- practicing forward slips with a plane like that might be all the entertainment I would need for a long time.

    I saw See Temp's plans and a plane built from them at WRAM years ago -- almost bought them. The plane was so full of character and really attractive. Jim

  22. #22
    Moderator BMatthews's Avatar
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Joe, I can't remember if I sent you a PM about the wire. Anyhow I've got it here. PM me your mailing address I can mail it to and there'll be an envelope of old .015 braided wire out for you soonest.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  23. #23
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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Joe, I just opened this thread for the first time. This is an awesome project. I'll stay tuned.

    David

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    ProBroJoe, Wow, am I fortunate that I found this thread and that you're just starting your build. I purchased this plan about three years ago, but didn't think I had the skill to build it. I have that skill now, but this plan is pretty difficult to read. You mentioned that you received a copy of the article that went along with the plan. Would you be willing to sell me a copy. Maybe it will help me decipher this plan. I am not planning on putting an .049 into it. I am an all electric flyer land think a standard speed 400 might be able to fly this, if I can keep the weight down. I've tried to download some pictures from the internet, but they aren't very clear. There is a a nice full sized build located at
    http://www.flyingflea.org/CanadianHM8/CanadianHM8.htm which may help me build this. Anyway, thanks for starting this thread. I will be waiting for each step you take in the build. Caley

  25. #25

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    RE: Avionnette HM-8 build thread.

    Hi Joe, Got this picture over in my Forum. Shows a very nicely built HM.8 Caley
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