forsakenrider

someone needs to buy this and fly it:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHURIKEN-050...4e#ht_75wt_917

And we, as a group of half-a lovers, need to find a solution for the picco. A 100$ speed engine, I figure that's where the line is.

aspeed

For $250 I think whoever buys it will leave it in the box.  I should have got the one at Toledo a few years ago for $150.  It was Glen Lee's.  I wanted it real bad but that was my allowance for the whole show.  If someone had a CNC, they could make a case like that (rear exh though) and use the Picco P/Cyl, and make a new crank.  Really just the crank is the problem.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Working on it, hopefully HobbyKing will respond. I have no doubt that the Shuriken delivers the goods but it looks twice as heavy as necessary. A good, cast case that will also take a throttle will expand the market and make the sales volume more attractive.

I have a Brodak MK1, cast iron/steel converted to AAN, engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHQhD1PpJUQ that does nearly 20K on a 6 x 3 black Tornado. What would it do on a 4.2 X 4 APC is the question. Have to dig it up and find out. THAT one may be THE one,,

OR, this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt6OYUorx9U is a Brodak case with the Picco innards including the crank. Delicate crank so I ran it with an APC, 5 X 2 cut down from a 6 X 2 and IT does, 26K same as the stock Picco but with NO ball bearings and at HALF the weight. The Picco was a car engine and ball bearings a good idea for the side loads imposed. Not so necessary in an engine that takes a prop.

Both have RC throttles and mufflers. With no muffler and the kinds of carbs you fellows use, who knows, needs some more R&D.

But the Brodak MK2 is already AAN, superbly made in most respects, the crank looks solid, the liner has TWO boost ports and there are two different cases.

Can't imagine why, if no one has tweaked this one to do 30K on a 4.2 X 4 APC.

More detais on the MK2 to come.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

You may notice that in the middle picture for the conversion componenets, there's a "filler" sleeve. The OD of the original, steel liner is larger than the Picco, brass liner. So, it's possible to stuff the ABC components of an MDS .09 into this case and get a true, ABC .074, or so.

THAT would also expand the market when you don't have to stick to a displacement class,, such as sport RC or even combat where the rules can be flexible.

aspeed

This is the AP.09 liner with the slots milled in the sleeve, the .15 is similar but the slots go right through. They share the same crank but the .09 is 12.5 mm bore and the .15 is 15.5 mm along with the head. The case is easy to make with no ports, and a simple backplate with one tapped hole, not four with screws and gastkets etc. The pics are of the .09 sleeve, and the .15 motor in the plane. I like it because of the rear exh, simplicity and it is fairly fast. (The .15 is slower than some .15's but it really is a .135) Anyway, an .049 to .06 could likely use some of these features in a case with the ports epoxied up or a sleeve like you have used. Maybe Brodak or Norvel case and Picco P/Cyl. ??? The AP's take a regular plug, but I like the Cox or Norvel style plug with the piston flush with the top of the liner best. If you are starting from scratch.

MJD

My Feedback: (1)

And I have one of the .061's as well. It is a beast, and very easy to handle. IIRC, 34k on a Driskill combat prop on the first run, a bit rich. It pulls my little POS 25" sport racer like a missile, insane power to weight.

Here's one issue with these engines - intended for combat with low pitch composite props, the prop stud is very short. Not much thread engagement on APC or CF speed props, as in 2.5 - 3 turns on an Al prop nut. I stripped mine - it needs a step nut with a short extension into the prop hub for more engagement. Mind you a 2.75" pitch prop at 35-36k still moves along smartly, but not fast enough, it won't get into the mid 100's.

The Profi Rambler .049 I recently acquired has a longer stud. I'm a loser for not running it yet, but I have been head first in the Tiger Moth restoration every spare minute lately, we're busting our chops trying to get it in the air by July. So I pushed all modelling projects to the side temporarily. That said, I still spend a few minutes here and there converting the Blink over to the Profi. Carved out the engine mount, bonding in new rails underneath, fixing hangar rash on the covering, changing out the radio gear. Will have to use a short stubby bladder rather than the typical 1/8" dia tubing, to get enough fuel in the small space available. It ought to go like snot. Replacing the HS-55's with 65's, out with the NiMH battery, bla bla.

ffkiwi

I'm a little surprised at how poor the machining is on the AP liner-and they've just chromed over the top of it. Just as with painting-chrome won't hide poor surface preparation! [mind you these ARE cheap engines....] The head looks rather agricultural as well-and that glowplug cavity volume...ugh! Imagine what could be achieved with a nice head profile and a Nelson or turbo plug..........

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

MJD, I've located the bladder on the outside of some planes. You can use a clear plastic canopy and "Shoe Goop" it behind the engine. Punch a hole in the canopy that the bladder can slip into and you're done. It will look funky once it gets dirty, so a tinted canopy would help with that issue.

aspeed

FFkiwi, The AP' s are kind of crude, the .15 has a thinner wall than the .09, so they just machined right through. They both seem to run pretty good. The .09 is a bit better than my Tee Dee .09 and has a fairly reasonable throttle. It has to be remembered that it was $29.95. A carb can easily cost that much on other motors. I think the design is very good for saving machining time. Only one hole to thread on the backplate, not 4 bolt holes to tap, no bypasses to match up etc. I machined up a bunch of head blanks for the Turbo plugs to use on some of my smaller motors like the TT .07, ASP .15, maybe I will try the AP's too, I think I made 14 blanks. The one TT .07 really woke up, the other one is a dud I think. I have another major project to suck my time now so it may be a while. The Picco will have to wait too :-(

ffkiwi

I've always thought the APs were a sort of downmarket derivative of the earlier CS and SY 09 racing engines-certainly those two marques figure somewhere in their design ancestry. Going all the way through the liner to produce a slot which becomes both passage and port is not unique to the APs-the MJ Jet 061s use this approach, as does the ASP 12. And rough machining doesn't always indicate poor performance-the British Elfin diesels of the late 40's and early 50's were rough as guts-but still performed (something of a mystery considering the precision generally required in model engines)-mind you the Elfin 50 of 1952 was a bit of a disaster-supposedly the fits were so poor most of them wouldn't run-the law of diminishing returns-the smaller the engine the better the fits you need......
But in this day and age of precision CNC machining centres, and 6-axis milling facilities, it still comes as a bit of a surprise seeing visible milling cutter marks on the AP liners, and parting off marks on the top flange.....I suppose they might argue it helps the chrome stick on better...............

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

MJD

My Feedback: (1)

The tank compartment has a reasonable volume, it fits a Fuji film tank nicely. I have some fittings and tubing for F2D bladders that should do the trick. But a small canopy over the compartment would clean it up nicely.

This being rear exhaust, wonder how close the canopy can be to the engine.. It will sure get mucky fast! No matter, the whole model shows wear anyhow but it is still sound at the moment.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Ooops......I forgot about the rear exhaust issue. It might melt the canopy if it was too close. At any rate, I've never come up with a 1/2A bladder that could hold more than 3/4 ounce and give consistant pressure . What happens if I try to over fill is inconsistant runs and shorter bladder life. If you can rig up crankcase pressure it sure makes life much easier if you want longer, more consistant runs. The weight penalty of a hard tank needs to be considered on some planes VS a simple balsa compartment for your latex bladder.
3/4 oz of 15% nitro is enough fuel to have a nice flight with 5 or 6 [downwind] passes to look at on the Wavoscope.

MJD

My Feedback: (1)

Yeah, 3/4 oz is enough fun for me at that size and those speeds. A film can tank is more like 1/2 ounce. Might look at crankcase pressure. The rear cover has a center hex boss which would accept a fitting nicely.

I've written a few times to ask about progress on the piped version of the Profi .049 but so far not available yet. Not sure I need another expensive paperweight (beat you to it CP) but it sho' is tempting.

paulgibeault

Gentlemen,
I currently run a much modified Shuriken in AMA Class 2 mouse racing and 1/2 proto Speed. It is a complete fallacy to think that the price is related to it's power output. Case in point a BLUE (Glen Lee) Shuriken recently sold on ebay for over $1000. I had one in my hands awhile back... It will not be ANYWHERE near the power output of the original. It's value is simply that of a COLLECTIBLE.
In Class 2 mouse racing, the Shuriken is about as powerful as a (corrected) AAC Cyclon. Some Cyclons had unstable pistons that needed work in order for them to run (normally) fast. Left uncorrected, they ran several thousand rpm slow. The (corrected) Cylon had the great advantage of being very easy to start both hot & cold. NOT SO with the stock Shuriken. Quick hot re-starting was a definate problem making it problematic for a C/L race application.
Other than the starting issue, the stock Shuriken was quite powerful & fast compared to "the field".
I made it a "research project" to try & make the Shuriken a fast (hand) starting mouse engine. That resulted in having to have a custom made ABC piston/cylinder & head assembly made. The custom parts were VERY precisiely made & fit up & resulted in a 1-2 flip starting engine hot or cold that didn't burn out Novarossi tapered seat glow plugs running at ~32,000 rpm on 10% nitro fuel w/ an APC 4.2D X 4P prop. (just don't ask me the cost)
Sadly, the Mouse 2 event has died out shortly after I perfected the model /engine set-up!

In AMA Open 1/2A Speed, although the Shuriken could have been a contender, the piped version was never really perfected & I never heard of one of one being flown in official competiton. One Shuriken in the hands of Paul Isner in England did put the British 1/2A record into the statosphere, but I have no info on the details. In the USA, speed fliers put their tuning efforts into the Chinese produced piped C.S & G.Z. engines. Often referred to as "kit engines" due to the extensive fitting modifications required to extract top performance. Done right, these engines (or a home-built or two) end up on the Nats podium placing. Not done right they are mediocre in performance.

In the "Open Face" 1/2A Proto arena, speed fliers have more engine options. I was lucky to witness the latest Picco P-05 performance by notable speed record holder Jerry Rocha of Napa, CA. His flight was a new record of 110 mph with AMAZING high rpm on a 3.8P" carbon prop. He was not able to claim the flight due to the model getting ahead of the pilot who got out of the speed pylon on lap 8. (10 laps are req'd). The second attempt had a tank failure & the model was retired for the day.
Jerry went on to win at 100.5 mph with his modified C.S. powered back-up model. This shows that in "the right hands" the Picco can REALLY go! Butttt, in the hands of 'Joe Average speed flier', the other Picco broke its crank, & was not running particularly fast... One or 2 Profi's ran at GREAT rpm's but can't seem to break 85mph at best...HMmmm!
My much modified McShuibo ( McCollum/Schuette/Shuriken/Gibeault) ran a respectable 97 MPH w/ the APC prop. My Schutte designed Mike Hazel molded carbon prop is 2 mph better, but both of mine were damaged in flying/lauching accidents...
Another C.S. powered model by Karl Kaldwell of Nevada was 3rd at 95mph.

In light that the NW Regionals in Oregon is a competition tougher than the AMA Nats, its always interesting to see the 1/2A Proto results. Especially as many improve their scores every year. But the scores themselves only tell part of the story. Jerry's latest Picco model has been specially designed to be the absolute lightest model that we know of at 4.4 ounces!! 4.4 oz accelerates faster than my 5+ oz. model, so there is more carefull building work to be done on my part...
Yes, the Shuriken is heavier than it needs to be, but one thing that does is make it VERY STABLE running. I smashed my Shuriken head first into the pavement at one AMA Nats & once cleaned, it still ran perfectly. It's also super easy to needle & does not seem to change when the engine heats up.
This allows me to start the engine myself, casually walk out to the lines, pick up the handle & go. All with the engine running full blast lean but not 'going over' nor over-heating.
Trimming is also a BIG PART of performance. I went from 94-> 97 mph just by correcting a stab incidence problem & a better leadout position (no engine work involved)!
It does appear though that the (Open Face) Proto event attracts the largest entry because people feel they have engine options. Picco-C.S.-G.Z.- Profi- Cyclon-Shuriken. Only the Shuriken is no longer produced. But as I've found out, ANY engine will do well if the basics of fit / finish & set-up are there...
I continue to run the Shuriken & absolutely know there is more performance to be extracted. It isn't without a cost though... research often turns up a fair number of failures before improvements are found. Patience is a good virtue in performance tuning. There are no good short cuts from what I can tell....
Perhaps that's what keeps these 'bitty-bore' engines so interesting!

aspeed

Hi Paul, good to hear from you again.  Do the Proto's have to use 10% fuel now?  I ran my CS a long time ago in a profile proto, and it went ok, I think 85mph, but ran the motor with 10% lately and it is not going to be anywhere near that. I let Glen's Shuriken go by at the Toledo show a few years ago, $150 I think.  I got too many motors and I wouldn't resell it anyway???

forsakenrider

Nice info Paul! I wish there was some people fliying out here in the east! Im sure everyone would love to see some pictures of your models and engines if they dont give away any secrets!

aspeed

We may be the only two people left in the eastern part of the country.  There has been some talk of 1/2A profile proto at the Balsa Beavers in Toronto, but nothing firmed up the last time I looked.  They are limiting it to a TD as well.  There may be something going on in the US.  The Nats in Muncie Indiana, maybe New York has something going on.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Paul ......that is very interesting reading about what is happening in 1/2A control line. Thanks for chiming in with that report..!
For all you guys who love 1/2A powered RC flight....seek out local control line contests and check it out some time. The events I have gone to are run like a 3 ring circus. There will be precision aerobatics, combat, racing, top speed, scale, aircraft carrier deck, baloon bust all going on pretty much at the same time. At big meets vendors show up with hobby related wares for sale.

paulgibeault

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the kind words. I though some of you might have an interest in these things. Al: Yes, in the USA (AMA) the 1/2A proto's use the mandated 10% nitro, 20% oil fuel. In Canada, (MAAC) the rules still allow unlimited fuel (yee-haw!). While there is no substitute for nitromethane, many of us have recovered a great deal of performance by running lighter props & revving them up faster. You will notice this in most events that have been restricted to 10% nitro fuel. The speeds fall down for a year or two until guys find out what props work better, then the speeds go right back up again & then some.
I believe the 1/2A proto event is the most popular (relative to others), because there is quite a bit more of an engine selection. There is NOT much of a selection of really competitive motors, but there you go...that's often the case in speed.
I would post more photos if I knew how, but my computer ( & skills) are woefully lacking. I also don't frequent this forum regularly.

None the less it's always interesting to talk 1/2A! There really aren't enough people left doing this kind of thing for me to keep speed secrets. I mean there are no more speed events left in Canada, so how well did that work out for us speed types? I have to go south or to Europe just to find a C/L speed contest. I was pleased to note that the Cox .049 reed engine was the most popular event (Class I Vintage) in England last year...
I'm thinking of maybe selling off a few custom TeeDee's...I wonder if anybody's interested?

Anyone needing detailed info (in any kind of a timely manner) is best to just email me directly. Best of luck guys & keep having FUN!

Cheers, Paul

Flying-dog

This is the car with the engine? ?

aspeed

Yes it is the 'car' motor, that must be converted to work on a plane. It takes a bit of effort with machining tools, butcan beone of the fastest ones available. I believe that is what you were wondering.

Toad

I just ordered 4 of these. got an email back refunding the cost of one of em. They shipped me 3 and now the website says not available. I may have just purchased the last 3 that nitrohouse had for 30 bucks each. I finally feel like I got a steal of a deal for once

forsakenrider

Oh no! Now we need something new to come out we can actually fly! Nice work Mr Toad.

Maybe they have pull start ones left?

aspeed

I got one of the pull start ones. Had to make a backplate up, as well as all the other mods. I found something similar, Vertigo .07 @ Hobbypartz. I tried searching it and am not sure how to but got this if it show up. http://www.hobbypartz.com/07veenfor1ni.html Kind of similar, likely not as good.

FF-doug

Hey P-zero guys . . .
This is Doug Galbreath coming at you.
I have pretty much solved the P-zero crank problem. Stay with me here and I'll explain it.
What I have developed is a 4130 chrome moly sleeve with a port hole that goes from the back of the 7mm shank to the back of the front bearing. The ID is crank diameter plus about .0005 in. I glue it onto the crank with JB weld. The case is bored out to .317 and a SS 8mm rear bearing installed in the case.
RPM is the same as the 7mm, but it is bulletproof. And not that bad at $35.00 for the whole conversion. De-stroking is another $20 bucks, includes re-bushing the rod to match the new crankpin. This makes the P-zero definitely one of the best 1/2A engines around. Still cheaper than a cyclon, and faster in the air.