KidEpoxy

Stick-
There is a little red hand icon under my posts.
You probably should just give that a click.
I hit STL with that a while back and my life is far less stressful, you should try it. That way you wont even be able to see me trying to get the PFs to be welcome everywhere, or asking what folks would like to see in the AMA, or saving money... or any other of that hate I'm acredited with.

XXXOOO
KE

Stickbuilder

No comment will be made in response to any post from this individual

Bill, AMA 4720

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I am not going to comment on your no-comment comment about not commenting about Kid's comment.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Whole new can of worms IMO but here goes. When I buy insurance I pay more based on what I am insuring. I feel the same should apply. IMO a jet with large amounts of Kero or a 40% gasser has the potenital to cause more damage than a shock flier or FF model. Should the guys flying indoors pay the same as the guys doing 150mph + pay the same? Not in my book. Should the kid with an air hog wanting to get involved in more advanced RC pay the same as the guy with a jet? Not in my book. To take it further the guys with those advanced models are gettting a good deal under the current membership. I like flying Q-500 planes and feel like I am getting a deal since I percieve my model to be potentially more dangerous than the normal sport fliers in the clubs I am a member of. Would I pay a few extra bucks a year for the privledge to fly my advanced planes??? Sure! If I were only flying small electrics would I take advantage of the lower fee and restrict my model type??? Sure.

We keep commenting about what AMA restricts or allows at the club level this is the individual club's area of decision.
Regarding rockets and cars. One of the clubs I am in welcomes any kid with AMA to engage in any RC or Rocket activities as long as they do not interfere with the main purpose of flying airplanes and no safety rules are breached.

You asked for my opinion this time.


LCS, I am not an AMA hater and would appreciate not being on your "list".

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

We fly with Parkflyers all the time...no problem at all unless you call having fun a problem. Everything from 40+%s to Helies to little foamys we have it all. BTW I am going to get busy building a few more foamys and let my 3.3 composite Yak rest awhile.

Don't need no stinking AMA park-flyer membership BS here to get into the way.

KidEpoxy

Yes Vic, Worms indeed.
Seems we can look at getting a break on the insurance another way though. If we can agree that there realy is less & more hazardous Model Flying Activities ( turbine & rubber) it would reason the insurance would be different. But perhaps the same logic that balances the Turbine & Rubber risks under the 2.5mil (whatever, exact dont matter) coverage should look along those lines at Low Risk PFs for the same 2.5mil would be cheaper insurance than High Risk 2.5mil coverage or AverageRisk 2.5mil coverage.

If the new PF Tier gets cheaper insurance by having lower risk rather than lower coverage, then they could fly at standard fields with 2.5mil coverage like everyone else.

But I have no idea what the numbers would crunch out to be, and they already balance the risk having Turbine & Rubber risk levels to average out around SportFlyer. Sure the Rubber guys are getting the shaft and theTurbines are getting a deal, but it is the whole enchilada that buys insurance... well, everyone except PF Tier I guess. But I'm sure the Rubber guys wont mind the PFs getting cheaper insurance.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

I don't really care what they do, just keep the tier/card out of the local club... The ama can pass all kinds of crud and that's fine, just don't put the burden on the club to enforce it!!!! It's easy to pass all kinds of rules if you're not the one that has to go out and enforce them. Like scheduling an event then putting it on everyone else to set everything up for it..... Clubs have a hard time just enforcing pin boards let alone who has the right insurance to fly what model... They'll have to hire a full time attendant to follow everyone around asking for their insurance and weighing their model If they don't, the club takes a huge chance at loosing their flying facility....

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Kid, you hit it right…the rubber flyers and control line guys are accustomed to getting nailed.

Stickbuilder

Vic,

I think that it all depends on what works for you in your area. I was using the analogy by using the car and boat thing to show that we do make differences, but not discrimination. We have a very large, active club, and it is difficult enough to get a flight station, without adding lots of more waiters to the list. I suppose that we could add flight stations, but basically we are out of room. We already went to a non-powered area for the gliders, and a helicopter area, and a place for the 3-D guys to do the hovers etc. So yes, room is in short supply. People, on the other hand don't seem to be. I don't know how you would ever enforce a tiered ticket, based on what you fly. There is nothing keeping from flying a park flyer today, and a 42% Aerobat with a 175cc gasser tomorrow. How would you police that?

Bill, AMA 4720

KidEpoxy

Jon says volumes.
All the hate being piled onto the idea of PayPerDay non-members with Adequate but Alternate Insurance would just be applied verbatim to the Tiered Special Insurance. How do we enforce it, who's gonna do the work, clubs will just chose not to participate.

They will be outcast stepchildren and we should try to develope a plan that doesnt do that rather than charging along on something full of holes.

Where will they fly.
At the clubs that dont exist yet? At existing clubs but underinsured? Maybe at existing clubs that wont let them in cause it is a pain? Maybe forcing nitro flyers out of existing clubs so the club can downgrade to E-PF-Club status & members?

Do we want to answer these questions before we waste money on the program, or after?

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Kid, I believe you got it too. Next if we went that direction would be pilot skills rated insurance. (I would be one of those high risk ones).

Why segregate, why not just one big group, all paying the same, and all enjoying the same benefits, no matter what they fly.

Yeah, Yeah, I know those flying the big dollar birds, could raise a stink over the $20.00 foamy taking up his flight time, or radio spot. But if the $20.00 foamy is paying the exact same rate, should he not also be given the same benefits?

And yep those rubber fliers could say they are getting the short end, but it's their choice what they fly. The way it is now, in a way they too could be looking at a benefit. They don't have to pay an additional charge to increase insurance coverage if they decide to fly some thing else.

At our club field, it don't matter what it is you fly, heck or for that matter drive R/C wise. We're all just there to have a good time.

Maybe we as members of the AMA, should work harder at just getting fliers to join the AMA, instead of thinking of ways to change the AMA to suit each different branch of the AMA.

Remember, WE are the AMA.

Hossfly

Jon...., I agree 101% with you. AMA is just like government. Screw the people with all kinds of ridiculous programs and expect the locals to enforce those rules.

I am glad I am a life member of both my club and the AMA. Just this AM made a deal on a boat suitable for saltwater bay fishing and I think it's about time I take another fishing hiatus / sabbatical like in '85-'89.

No matter the time-frame in AMA history, active modelers outnumbered AMA members at LEAST 100 to 1. While I well know that changes should be made in the AMA program and I have so long wanted to be a part of those GOOD changes, I must now face the fact that such wishful dreaming is history just like many model flying fields will soon be.
Like all these pages of rhetoric will soon pass into the archives, so will the AMA pass away as the membership has known AMA.
Unfortunately the vast majority of AMA membership really doesn't care. [] AMA as an organization is already the BIG-ONE that got away.

KidEpoxy

Dont give up Hoss.

With any luck, someday soon folks will be in their dining rooms saying

"Man this is good chili... is it that New York City El Victor stuff?"
No, it from Muncie, and look... the can says folks fly planes by radio control.
"Radio eh? We ought to give that a try some weekend, if they make chili this good then flying RC must be great!"

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Re-read the proposal. Your wish is their command.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

If you re-re-read.. That's what I said earlier in the thread.... Acknowledged

KidEpoxy

How much lead time will clubs have from when Muncie ratifies the program, and when it takes effect?

Cause there is gonna have to be a whole lotta Bylaw/Rule/Signage changes done by clubs that have been relying of stuff like:
AMA Membership Required
Current AMA required
Must be member of AMA
AMA Members Only
AMA Insurance Required
etc.

Now all those terms that served to keep the Non-member out will not keep the SubStandard Member out.
Who is gonna put in all the thousands of man hours to change all club's rules & go over all clubs bylaws to make sure the SubStandards dont fly up the place with their Special SubStandard Insurance

Who is going to keep them out of clubs that now say AMA Required.

abel_pranger

Kid, that's the most pertinent inquiry in this thread.

OP in both thread title and this

makes a statement based on a reply to him from one of the AMA prexy runners and some folks get all het about it, like they did when OP's quote of Ms Hager was sent out to members a couple of years ago. Thing is, nothing has happened re 'fleshing out the program' since. Don't doubt it is still on the plate as the reply to Dion's 'sucking up' (tnx Hoss) stated, that's where it's going to stay. Read reply from another candidate to a very similar question [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=748669]HERE[/link].
As an aside, while there take note that all three candidates now have discussion forums.

Abel

Aw heck, my link paste job didn't work when I tried it, so I patched it. If the patch job doesn't work, this did: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=748669

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Thats an easy fix. just mod the documents to say "Full rate AMA members".

KidEpoxy

Oh, the edit job of Insert is easy,
who is going to do the Find?
Did you get them all? All the rules documents in origin & online copies? All the places in bylaws, and the typing has to be folowed by votes, maybe even in Arts of Corp for some clubs and get that filed with the state (I'm sure the state will let you do that free, right)

what is the burden put on the clubs to find all the things they need to change, and how long ill they have to do it before guys come up saying theye meet your posted printed requirements (and if it is in Cal, I'm sure they wont sue over something frivolous like this). The hassle to keep the SubStandard members off Standard Fields is right in line with letting the PayPerDay non-members fly, and folks scream bloody murder of the logistics/enforcement of that.

but again, the whole can of worms could be avoided by the new tire having the same insurance as everyone else so we dont have to discriminate at the field

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

So, if they have the same insurance, and are supporting the same organization, and get the benefits of the organization (like access to club fields) they should just pay the same price as everyone else.


So much for the e-ticket tiered system.

LeeL

My Feedback: (1)

Talked to a group of fliers today at a non-ama chartered field, there were 37 guys flying everything from foamies to 40% aerobats to hellis' 5 of the guys were ama members according to them the only reason was because they flew in competitions some felt there was no good reason to join, others didnt even know what the ama is. I brought up the e-ticket idea and asked if they would be interested in joining under those conditions and at the lower price. they said they did not see any reason or benifit in joining. With comments such as these I am currious how would the e-ticket bring in more members? Another question how many members would we lose because of the tiered cost and how many full members would cut back to the e-ticket and cause more lost revenue?

KidEpoxy

Leel-
The loss of Standard Members wont be that drastic.

They will see that by saving money on the SubStandard Tier they will no longer be alolowed to fly at their club, and have to find land to make a new SubStandard Tier Club. We all know how many landowners are waiting in line to get rc planes buzzing around, so it wont be hard to start the new club... right? They would of course then have the fun of a Freq Agreement if the clubs are close, and the existing club gets the fun of having fewer members to help pay the bills. And lets not forget the good times had when clubs split & then bicker over everylittle thing and fight over resources... like sabotaging events.

Will Muncie put in Electric Only water coolers and have seperate but equal runways & museums? Cause they are creating a huge Us & Them problem with the tier concept at this stage.

The only way I would endorse this is if a Sparky SIG rallied under a secession flag & demanded the right to split from main AMA..... which of course would be forbidden. We would get the House Divided rhetoric & dogma from the No-Change crowd.


<ok, that part looks dry, time to drill some holes & glue another piece... back in a few mins>

KidEpoxy

El Bumpo for the
Guess PF Tier Cost
thread

Seems we got this going in 2 threads,

In review:
Red, Mongo, Me, and a few others say: curent concept PF Tier = bad

But the good news is Stick says he isnt replying to my posts here,
so at least we got that going for us

JUGFLIER

OOps Kid, Me and STL are for it...... I said this would make strange bedfellows.

KidEpoxy

Well,
I'm not against getting ANY Parkie tier,
I just havent heard much about this one, and what we have heard I havent liked.

Maybe they will come up with a better plan later that I might go for.
But having Standard Memebers & SubStandard Members is just asking for trouble if they have SubStandard Insurance.