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Old 01-29-2013, 09:55 AM
  #1
33willys
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Default Which glue

I'm about to mount the tail feathers onto the basswood longerons of my Elder 40. Got this mental immage of the elevator dangling by the pushrod at 30 feet. Which glue to use? Researched the different types. Had to take some things apart that were put together with 5 minute epoxy and it did not soak into the wood at all. Sort of surface glued. Don't think the CA glues will be stong enough. Sort of narrowed it down to either Elmers or Titebond. Titebond original, Titebond II or Titebond III? Not crazy about 30 minute epoxy. Any inputs would help me decide. Thanks.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:44 AM
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I have always used 30 minute epoxy and it has never failed.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: 33willys

I'm about to mount the tail feathers onto the basswood longerons of my Elder 40. Got this mental immage of the elevator dangling by the pushrod at 30 feet. Which glue to use? Researched the different types. Had to take some things apart that were put together with 5 minute epoxy and it did not soak into the wood at all. Sort of surface glued. Don't think the CA glues will be stong enough. Sort of narrowed it down to either Elmers or Titebond. Titebond original, Titebond II or Titebond III? Not crazy about 30 minute epoxy. Any inputs would help me decide. Thanks.
The 30 min epoxy gives you more time to work for sure but use only what you need this is not an area you want extra weight. Coat both parts very thinly this makes the wood to glue contact much stronger. More important then what glue to use is the joint itself, make sure the glue joint is near gap free with a precision fit. This promotes a stronger joint rather then thinking the glue will fill all gaps which it often does not. Using thick CA and kicker is a very strong but light method as well but take care not to make a big mess with it. Before flight simply give it a good pull test if it breaks out when pulling on it you just saved your model, it should be able to take a very strong pull. I hang my planes from the tail on my wall I know they can take the load no problem, good strong well fitting joints can’t be beat.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: Which glue

I'm a fan of 30 minuet epoxy. I guess in my simple mind I would rather wait 12 hours for the epoxy to fully cure than spend 12 days repairing a plane.... if it can be repaired at all.

Ken
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Quote:
ORIGINAL: 33willys

I'm about to mount the tail feathers onto the basswood longerons of my Elder 40. Got this mental immage of the elevator dangling by the pushrod at 30 feet. Which glue to use? Researched the different types. Had to take some things apart that were put together with 5 minute epoxy and it did not soak into the wood at all. Sort of surface glued. Don't think the CA glues will be stong enough. Sort of narrowed it down to either Elmers or Titebond. Titebond original, Titebond II or Titebond III? Not crazy about 30 minute epoxy. Any inputs would help me decide. Thanks.
30 min epoxy would be my choice, however 15 min does well. I never worry about weight as in these kinds of models you will not notice a few extra ounces if you balance the model using a CG not beyond 28% of MAC, unless you are very much under powered. []
I always add more wood and more glue surface area on my tail-feathers. Once you get the stab. in place a good reinforcement is to add a couple short lengths of 3/16 or 1/4 dowel by drilling a hole through the stab into the saddle. You state the longerons are bass wood so the dowels would really be a strong reinforcement so no bad mental images. In addition inside the longerons of 1/64 or 1/32 ply triangles glued to the uprights and parallels will keep a lot of twist happening and add security to the tail section. So you add an ounce to the tail feathers. A couple ounces up front takes care of that and the model still stays together.
These models, except Eindecker 6 years old, are all 10-20 years old. Still active. triangles on longerons, uprights and cross pieces have assured longivety, on the 3 big fellows.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Another for 30 minute epoxy.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:25 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Ok, 30 minute epoxy it is. Hossfly, I like the idea of using dowels which I will do. already put gussets on the longerons that will double as anchor points for the rigging. I do have a thing about overbuilding. Power will be a Saito FA72 so pulling it should not be a problem. Thanks for everybodys input.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:32 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

33willys, There is a build thread on the Elder 40 in the "kit building forum" that you would be interested in. Search for it.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:49 PM
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33willys, Just thought some more about what your doing on your Elder and I have a suggestion....When I built mine I filled the last 2&3/4 fuselage sections (upper surface) with some thick scrap balsa to create a much, much greater surface area to glue the center of the horz. stab to. I didn't trust just gluing to the basswood sticks with nothing between them. Glue plywood in there if you want, but do fill that area with something to create a good, large surface to glue to. And yes, I would and did use 30 min epoxie for that. The extra weight takes a back seat to making it strong.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:34 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

I have been using this structural adhesive for around 20 years now, great stuff with lots of working time. Spend a couple of minutes reviewing the spec sheet and I think you will be impressed with this material.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...41642243,d.b2I

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Old 01-29-2013, 09:05 PM
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+1 on 30 min epoxy if you get too much clean it up with rubbing alcohol
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:28 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Toothpicks work well as dowels in 3/16th 1/4 size stringers.

I would use 30 min epoxy.

Apply a very thin coat rubbed in well on the gluing areas use a hair dryer or some other heat source to help the epoxy penetrate the wood, scrape off any excess.

Allow to cure for 30 mins to an hour MAX.

Apply a more epoxy and make the joint with clamps if possible. Again scrape off any excess.

When I am building I make every effort to keep the tail of a model as light as possible. Excess weight there requires a disproportional amount of nose weight to get the CG in the right place. One 0z at tail will need about 8 oz lead in the nose to compensate. Light models fly better.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:46 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

a note on Tite bond which is really strong by the way and would work for this application if needed, the TB I&II are really similar materials the II is slightly water resistant and can be used on float planes if the areas are sealed the TB III is a exterior product and can withstand exposure to moisture but not extended submersion as in under water, better to leave it for house building rather than for models because of the difficulty with the sanding, but if some one was building a float plane then in areas exposed to some moisture its a great glue to use.

ideally the I and II are the best for standard wood gluing, and are fairly easy to sand when dry, the III is a real bear to sand and when dry is super hard, so if its beaded up make sure you clean any excess before it becomes dry, with either a slightly damp rag or paper towel.

when gluing balsa sheeting together at the edges then regular TB is the stuff because after the sheets are dry there going to need sanding at the seams to get a nice smooth surface.

of course for the tail epoxy is perfectly fine and in some cases the best adhesive to use but when applied correctly and clamped Tite Bond glue works great
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:50 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Would there be any advantage to soaking the joining surfaces with zap to aid penetration and harden the surface,before sanding it and then epoxy??
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:53 AM
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Default RE: Which glue

No it would be better to allow the epoxy to penetrate the wood itself... Tite bond III is the slower curing of the tite bonds and that allows it to penetrate the wood a little better..So it will make a stronger butt joint but for laminating it will tend to warp more..It is much harder when set so it is important to clean any squish out before it sets up too hard..I use a sharp putty knife sometimes ..It just depends on the joint but dont forget because if you let it set up hard it is like sanding glass...I think on your basswood joints I wood use tite bond III . Why don't you do a couple of test joints with your different glues and some scraps of basswood ?? Thats what I do when I can't decide what glue I want to use ...It will really help show what holds what...
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:07 AM
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Default RE: Which glue


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Quote:
ORIGINAL: 33willys

I'm about to mount the tail feathers onto the basswood longerons of my Elder 40. Got this mental immage of the elevator dangling by the pushrod at 30 feet. Which glue to use? Researched the different types. Had to take some things apart that were put together with 5 minute epoxy and it did not soak into the wood at all. Sort of surface glued. Don't think the CA glues will be stong enough. Sort of narrowed it down to either Elmers or Titebond. Titebond original, Titebond II or Titebond III? Not crazy about 30 minute epoxy. Any inputs would help me decide. Thanks.
30 min epoxy would be my choice, however 15 min does well. I never worry about weight as in these kinds of models you will not notice a few extra ounces if you balance the model using a CG not beyond 28% of MAC, unless you are very much under powered. []
I always add more wood and more glue surface area on my tail-feathers. Once you get the stab. in place a good reinforcement is to add a couple short lengths of 3/16 or 1/4 dowel by drilling a hole through the stab into the saddle. You state the longerons are bass wood so the dowels would really be a strong reinforcement so no bad mental images. In addition inside the longerons of 1/64 or 1/32 ply triangles glued to the uprights and parallels will keep a lot of twist happening and add security to the tail section. So you add an ounce to the tail feathers. A couple ounces up front takes care of that and the model still stays together.
These models, except Eindecker 6 years old, are all 10-20 years old. Still active. triangles on longerons, uprights and cross pieces have assured longivety, on the 3 big fellows.
Hey Hossfly
What a cutie you have at the controls. She is a keeper
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:55 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

I'v been using HYSOL 9426 for alot of years for sheeting hinging blind nuts and it is a slow cure about 3hrs and dose not sag or run it bonds many defferent materials together it is also called aeropoxy.DREAMWERKS carries a kit or MCMASTER-CARR also.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Just wondering about the price difference between some of these products compared to epoxy I see being mentioned. Sensei and Dadragon? I just had to buy some epoxy at Hobby People and it is 14 or 15 dollars now. Not bad but I wouldn't mind trying something different if the price is right. Plus are these products foam safe? I'm doing a foam wing right now so that is on my mind too.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:28 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Gray Beard;Dreamwerks sells a kit for someware around 50.00 thats like the gun 1 tube of epox plunger and nozzles and that is not a one time use.its a dual tube self mixing as you apply its white.I dont mind spending a lil more for something that does not fail.Geo.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

3M 2216 structural adhesive is about 187.00 per quart kit from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty.

Bob
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Epo Grip is close to the same price as regular epoxy .. It is foam safe...Dosen't stink ' dosen't run , but you have to buy it in a little a bigger quantitys than reg epoxy so it seems more expensive...Look up Newton Products and Epo grip and you should be able to find out about it if you don't already know...I really like the stuff...All I can say is try it...
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:03 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

Thanks, I do go through enough epoxy that having to buy a bit more isn't a big deal. I buy my CA in 8 and 20 oz from a wood workers supply store. If I can locate the EPO GRIP at one of the supply houses I will give it a try. I have been testing out some of the old time cements this week and was just wondering about other products. I have never had the epoxy fail though so that isn't a concern for me.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

+1 on filling in the area that the stab sets on, that is exactly what I did with mine. As to the glue I used thin layers of slow cure epoxy to allow time for alignment. Now how do you keep from ground looping The Elder? [:'(] It is the only tail dragger I gave up on trying to fly !!

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Old 01-30-2013, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: Which glue

My elder has a tail wheel not a skid. Don't know if that matters as far as ground looping goes. I have only flown it off grass and with that long fuselage ground looping has not been an issue. Feed power in slowly to get it moving holding some up elevator (pushing the tail wheel down), continue to add power and as speed picks up release the up elevator, the tail will come up and now you are steering with the rudder, continue to full power and you will be airborne by now. If your flying off pavement you have to reduce the amount of steering correction input while the tail wheel is still on the ground or you will be "over correcting" and a ground loop will result (be very gentle on the rudder stick). I recently joined a club with a paved runway and had to retrain myself to go easy on the rudder stick on initial takeoff roll as I was over correcting having flown mostly off grass and I fly almost all taildraggers. 85 % of my airplanes have a wheel in the back. Flying a taildragger off pavement requires a much softer touch on the rudder stick. I have yet to fly the Elder off the pavement but have flown my Cubs, a Champ, an Extra 300 and other taildraggers there and all needed a softer touch with the rudder. And don't forget to feed power in slowly too. Hope that helps you.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:16 AM
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Default RE: Which glue

Thanks bikerbc i may try some.I see greybeard is experimenting with balsa cement.I mention that because just recently i read about a couple of respected scale scratch builders here who swear by(not at) balsa cement for pretty much anything and say they have never had a failure.Last used it as a kid so the memory is a bit hazy,it fills gaps well too.
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