PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

What I noticed with the sound inserts was that it put out a smoother, richer sound. I was fortunate that a friend flying his without inserts visited me, and we were able to compare the engine sounds side by side on the ground, as well as on separate fly-bys.

I was confident that you would like it, Dick!

~ Jim ~

hobby_man

My Feedback: (8)

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

I think Todd should have a look at it, with all this info accompanying it. I think Hobby man has done a good job of detailing his findings. One of the things that gets me is that it sounds like it's running pretty good, and if the carburetor wasn't good, it would (okay, should ) show some adverse signs from that, even for a few seconds.

I'm tempted to eye that CDI with some suspicion. Mostly because of the high engine temp.

That engine running out in the open like that should run cool no matter what, unless it was firing too far advanced, or retarded. I lean toward advanced. And unless both probes are broken (the same way), your probe sounds like it is properly calibrated to the other.

I'm running an 18 X 6 Xoar, like a lot of other guys. 40:1 is PLENTY of oil in the mix, since 50:1 would be plenty.

One thing we didn't discuss is the plug gap. It should be around .018 to .020; too big a gap can cause extra resistance and some heat. Not THAT much heat, though, and it could affect the performance if it's off a lot. I didn't eye it from your photos, maybe I'll take a glance and see what I can tell from them.

Do you have a Syssa shipping box in case you decide to send it back? I have an extra one here I can send you.

I'd be frustrated too, at this point.

~ Jim ~

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

I just listened to the video again a few times, and it's stumbling during transition from idle to full. That's a mixture problem. The manual can help you straighten that out. 2 turns out, lean it until it stumbles upon acceleration, and back it out a fraction of a turn. I wouldn't think it's enough to cause a high engine temp.

I find that when I lean out the low speed, the idle speed goes up and up, and I have to reset my travels/trims for my throttle servo to accommodate that. You can also expect that once you get it close, you'll have to adjust your high-speed screw, and then you'll have to go back and fine-tune your slow speed. Bring it down using your radio/travel so it's just tick-tick-ticking at idle, and then trim up to a bit higher RPM, so it won't stall during break-in. Then back and forth one more time to get the best transition, and you should be good. You should be able to do it all in just a few minutes.

You gave one clue I picked up reading your posts. It starts good the first time, but hard the second time. That says "too rich" on the slow speed screw, because it's helping the choke with richness when it's cold (starts good first time), but then it starts hard the second time (already warm - doesn't like the richness when it's warm). If your low speed is set too rich and you have to lean out the low speed much, it's very possible that your high-speed was set too lean before to accommodate that, and will need some richening. The recent plug coating that was alleviated by making it richer may be an indicator. It seems to bear that up.

~ Jim ~

pettit

My Feedback: (23)

Hard starting? I also found the same to be true with my engine, until I got the low speed needle dialed in. It took a few passes at it, but now the engine will idle at 1400 RPM or maybe lower if I use a heavy APC prop (flywheel effect) ane will stay there for minutes at a time. Then it'll accelerate instantly to full speed with nary a hiccup.

Yes, as you lean the low needle, the idle speed will increase. But go too far and it'll never accelerate well at all.

BTW, during my 2 hours of prop tests, it never took more than 3 flips to get it running. Sometimes just one flip.was needed.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

I remember thinking that I could almost have started at 1-1/2 turns out on the low speed. Never checked how far out I ended up, though. I'll bet it was less than that.

I should have stressed using the travel and trims to help get the idle speed down there. Of course it lets you know right away. Pfft. It dies. Too far. No acceleration. Dick is right, you CAN go too lean.

~ Jim ~

hobby_man

My Feedback: (8)

.02 on the plg gap guys.

The engine smokes alot more at lower rpm's this lead me to belive I was rich on the low spped, this fact and what you guys are telling me, I'll see what I have the low speed at and get it corrected.

I'll let you guys know what I fone out.

I'll be rechecking a few things pror to running again

plug gap
carb screens fuel filters
timing of enging
battery voltage
gas/oil mixture

Joystick TX

I'm not sure what you mean by "I was opening the throttle as fast as it would go, you can hear the results in the 3 video's." When you say "as fast as it would go" that is confusing because I would expect that you would be controlling that. It could mean you were moving the throttle lever and waiting for the engine speed to increase and catch up, so it would not die, which is why it took several seconds to get to wide open, OR you moved the throttle lever as fast as you could, like less than one second from idle to WOT, and the engine took several seconds to catch up with the throttle setting. Which one was it?

I'm sure your engine mixture is rich on the low end. When you choke the engine and use an electric starter it will start off rich for sure, which is why the engine runs rough for so long after it starts. It sounds like it is flooded after you have the choke off and try to start it.

"Hawkeye" Jim noticed your fuel T in a picture that you posted a while back, it was still attached in your latest picture, did you ever check it for leaks?

How close to 200 degrees was the water during your probe check?

Does anyone at your field have an ignition tester?

Can't wait to hear what happens tonight. Hopefully, you won't need to send it back to Todd.

hobby_man

My Feedback: (8)

I am running the throttle cable by hand so I advanced it as fast as I can shove it into the carb.

I will use my heat gun and check the temp of the motor. no it has not been calibrated, right now the probe says its 73 degrees, its 73 degrees outside via the house thermometer and the news, good enough for me.

the fuel filter does not leak

the high speed screw is out 3
low speed is out 2

how are you people getting to the carb screen without removing 1 of the standoff's? (this is an oops design)[:-]

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

>>

Anyone else thinking vacuum leak at this point?

Joystick TX

Sorry to be so anal about the temp probe; I taught Electronics for over twenty years and Industrial Instrumentation for six years and saw a lot of bad probes and damaged equipment as well as a lot of good equipment tossed out due to problems with them.Right now, you have one "known"data point; ". . . the probe says its 73 degrees, its 73 degrees outside . . . ." Unfortunately, that is also a long way off from 200 degrees. Your probe readingsmay or may not be "linear." Another data point near 200 degrees will provide some confidence that your probe is accurate at higher temps as well as the lower ones. Your engine should run over 200 degrees, it is an easy matter to check your probe at 212 degrees -boiling water, you can also check it with an ice bath to get another data point, more is better, but they need to be valid. The high temp may or may not be valid. We need to know if it is a red herring or not. Right now, no one can say for sure.

As far as the "how are you people getting to the carb screen without removing 1 of the standoff's? (this is an oops design)" question goes, it is easy. Not an oops, just the use of an "off the shelf" carb on an engine designed to have fewer parts and lighter weight. ( For light weight and reliability - The best part is no part) The carb filter is not something that needs to be removed that often, only once every year or two for most engines, some people never check it until they crash a plane.

The only reason I'm anal about the filterhere is because I've spent way too many hours troubleshooting engines for people who checked it, and didn't do it correctly, only to check it myselfto findit clogged with an almost invisible film. Since I have no idea how you checked it and can't see whatyou did, I have to hear "fluid will pass through it" not "I checked it", the two statements do not have the same meaning. I also did "root cause analysis" for a living for many years and don't like to eliminate anything unless it is 100%clear that it is not the cause of the problem.

Your engine is not running right, that is a fact. To determine the "root cause" or "multiple causes", things must be checked and eliminated, like peeling an onion. It is as important to know what is good and working as well as what is bad and not working. Guessing will only delay the fix.

Joystick TX

Good one.Thatmay explainthe requirement for an electric starter.

I'm waiting to see if the temp is a real issue. Once all the problems are known we needfigure out whatwould cause all of the symptoms.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Considering that the starting point for BOTH screws is 2 turns, and then they get turned IN from there to lean them, that's a big problem.

I like ahick's brainstorm idea about a big vacuum leak. It would actually fit with at least some of this. I had to run out to my Stearman (cowl was actually OFF!) and check for a carb mount spacer. There is one, but I'm not sure what it's made from. The base of the spacer is aluminum stock.

A fuel filter that sucks air is almost the same deal, on a smaller scale. Any fitting that allows air into the fuel is the same deal.

I'm in agreement with hobby man about the inconvenience of the top mount in relation to the carb cover. It spurred me on to add a fuel filter in the fuel line, because cleaning out the carb crap filter means removing the engine. Removing the single standoff is highly impractical, unless you have direct access to the rear of the firewall for the back bolt. However, I'm okay with that because the rest of the Syssa is so well designed. I'd love to see Todd build a "wide-stance mount" that provides carb access, but in all fairness, that would complicate an already strong, solid assembly. I can't consider it to be a real issue. Just a little potential irritant.

You seem to have plenty of fuel flow, hobby man. I wouldn't dig into it that far unless something points to it. Taking the mount off or dismounting the engine is a bear. However, if you remove the engine to check for cracks/leaks in the carb and/or spacer, that's a good opportunity to check it out.

~ Jim ~[8D]

hobby_man

My Feedback: (8)

changed 3 things
(H out 1.5 L out 1.5)
(removed the blue inline fuel filter) in case of vaccum leak
(clean carb screen) it has a tiny tiny spectical of gue at the bottom of the screen, sprayed with wd 40

heat guns says thermal probe if off, the higher the temp the more it is off, I saw 240 F on the motor with the heat gun and 280 on the probe

I have a new video, waiting for it to up load

here is the plug and set up

It really looks like it was that fuel filter!

hobby_man

My Feedback: (8)

Tomorrow I will put the fuel filter back and see if this ruins the set up

http://youtu.be/EM3aLFm2RsA

Take a look, tell me this is the way this engine is suposed to run!

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

240 to 280 is a nice heat range. Is the idle good, the engine response crisp, and the high end strong?

~ Jim ~

hyflyer9

I had to take out the opto kill switch as it was not alowing the propper spark and may have even affected the timing as well.
Also folks I got my engine back from Todd today and he did a beautiful job on fixing me engine and he even included the new muffler and inserts and from the day i sent it to him the full return trip was about 2 1/2 weeks pretty darn good i think seeing that i live on the east coast of Canada.

Murphey

My Feedback: (11)

Just came back from a great evening of flying! One if the best evening of flying this year! I passed 40 hours on my Syssa...40 flawless hours I might add. I am fortunate that I never had the timing issues, muffler issues ore even the CF spinner issues some had early on. This is my favorite engine, even above the trusty old Zenoah G-26!

My Syssa takes 3 flips with the choke on and 3 flip with it off...every time. It does have one unusual habit though...right after I start it and let it warm up while taxing out the the runway, it is imperative that I run it up to clear it out. It's like it is rich with fuel from the start up, but it clears out after a few seconds. The times that I haven't followed this procedure, I had a dead stick on take off. Interesting but I've worked it into my pre-flight procedure so no big deal. The only thing I don't like about it is that only have one!

More at 50 hours!
M

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Murphey,

Two questions. What's your fuel/oil mixture, and what's your spark plug gap?

~ Jim ~

Murphey

My Feedback: (11)

Jim: 50:1 synthetic. after break in. I really don't know what the plug gap is but I probably should change out the plug after this many hours even though it runs just fine. The engine has done that odd load up virtually from the beginning. I've tried to lean it out a bit in the past but it didn't like the change so I put it back to where it was.
M

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Sounding MUCH better, especially if you're still getting those nice cooler engine running temps.

Another happy camper!

~ Jim ~

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

A fresh plug with a checked gap couldn't hurt it. Might even help!

~ Jim ~

Joystick TX

Glad to see your engine is running better now. I love it when a plan comes together.

Maybe now you know why I'm anal about temperature probes and "the best part is no part."

For future reference, it would be nice to know what was wrong, theroot cause, and whatreallyfixed the problem.

I have one last question; when you said "the fuel filter does not leak" how could it have been the part that causedthe problem?

hobby_man

My Feedback: (8)

Not sure what fixed the engine, I do now what I did so (the list here posted) I'll re install the fuel filter and if the motor does not run it was the filter.
I had the engine carb set this way when I first got it so I have no confidence that it will work on a plane in the air.
I pressure tested the line/filter with air, but I needed a vaccum to really test the line/filter for leaks
the fuel line is shorter now as well and changed the route to the carb, this can have an effect on fuel pick up. 2 less joints as well

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Minimizing the fittings in a gas system, and making double-dang-sure they're tight, that's more important than many people realize. Sucking air into the lines will cause a dead-stick. But I can't see it causing this; at least, not on its own. It may have been a contributing factor.

You may have been dealing with multiple causes. That's not outside the realm of possibility.

Perhaps the most critical factor here is resetting the HI and LOW screws closer to their proper settings. It takes time to get a feel for setting mixture screws, and it's even tougher if you don't have help locally. It may seem silly to some that it may have been that simple. I try never to assume that a person does or doesn't know how to do something I take for granted. But that's just what I did here. We were looking for deep-seated, complicated, unexpected problems. Looking for clues.

I think that hobby man picked up some clues from us. Take, for example, when Dick and I were discussing the idle mixture.

We weren't looking for a guy in the middle of a learning curve. We never asked if he had experienced gas engine people at his field or in his club. We skipped right over that part.

Maybe it was the mixture all along. With the HI screw out an extra turn and a half, the amount of gas the engine had to handle would be staggering. I know we were looking for something complicated, but I'd be delighted to discover it was simply adjustments. Another odd one I'd get to tuck away in the back of my mind for future reference.

I think that hobby man did a great job of sticking to it. Looks like, with a little more tweaking, that he'll be able to enjoy his Syssa from now on.

I'm pleased.

~ Jim ~