WACO YMF
#3351
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Jim Henley
John,
Yeah, Yeah, keep pushing that AT-6 Spinner ! What that thing cost you would have thought it was the real thing
John,
Yeah, Yeah, keep pushing that AT-6 Spinner ! What that thing cost you would have thought it was the real thing
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
#3352
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Oshkosh,
WI
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1
The biggest difference I have noted is in the lock area, most had a "Platt" style lock (P-4, looks like a briefcase combination lock). The hatch cover was either even with the "tongueâ€, notched to fit around it or pierced for the tongue to pass through (P-4). The YMF Classic (NC 14081) that attended the Fly In had the notched variety.
The biggest difference I have noted is in the lock area, most had a "Platt" style lock (P-4, looks like a briefcase combination lock). The hatch cover was either even with the "tongueâ€, notched to fit around it or pierced for the tongue to pass through (P-4). The YMF Classic (NC 14081) that attended the Fly In had the notched variety.
Cheers!
Joe
WB #54
#3353
RE: WACO YMF
Joe,
When I first saw the "Platt" style lock, it looked too "modern". I asked Terry, (the Waco Restorer) if it was a modification and was told that it was an original part. A slight variation was used on the 1940 UPF-7 (NC 173E) based a CCA (p1), but either style lock was a big improvement over what was used on the 1929 JWM (NX 8550) with the "Woven Wire" type closure, where a brass wire is zig-zagged around hooks (like on a work boot) attached to both the hatch cover and the fuselage. (p2)
On the PT-17 (NC 48784) based here, it has the same lock with thumb screw Duetz type fasteners at the lower corners for extra security in flight (p-3)
When I first saw the "Platt" style lock, it looked too "modern". I asked Terry, (the Waco Restorer) if it was a modification and was told that it was an original part. A slight variation was used on the 1940 UPF-7 (NC 173E) based a CCA (p1), but either style lock was a big improvement over what was used on the 1929 JWM (NX 8550) with the "Woven Wire" type closure, where a brass wire is zig-zagged around hooks (like on a work boot) attached to both the hatch cover and the fuselage. (p2)
On the PT-17 (NC 48784) based here, it has the same lock with thumb screw Duetz type fasteners at the lower corners for extra security in flight (p-3)
#3354
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: BelvedereKent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 766
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1
On the PT-17 (NC 48784) based here, it has the same lock with thumb screw Duetz type fasteners at the lower corners for extra security in flight (p-3)
On the PT-17 (NC 48784) based here, it has the same lock with thumb screw Duetz type fasteners at the lower corners for extra security in flight (p-3)
I'm just back from holiday and can again look over the shoulders of the Brotherhood. I have really missed my daily share of Waco, thanks for your wonderful pictures and equally thanks to all the other brothers who make this thread worthwhile.
As a matter of interest the fasteners are called "DZUS" fasteners, I used them in my first job with British European Airways at the then London Airport "Northholt" the airline departure etc buildings were tents.
old git - - - - - aka John L.
WACO Brotherhood No. 14.
#3355
RE: WACO YMF
Welcome back John L.,
Hope your holiday was good. You are correct on the spelling of Dzus (glad you were able to figure out what I was saying). I just looked up Dzus and there appear to be many, many type of Dzus fasteners - quarter turn, push lock on-turn release, screw lead and others. One of the mdoel airplane manufacturers use to market or carry a small version (1/4" dia.?) for models, but all of my stuff was too small to find a use for them back then. Maybe with the 1/5th Waco (and larger) they can be used for a scale hatch fastener.
How close are you to the Shuttlworth Collection? As you may know, a fellow Brit, Desmond Penrose came over to the US and was able to fly the only airworthy DH-4 here at Creve Coeur Aiport and became the second highest flight time pilot (living) of the DH-4 during the Waco Fly In. His father helped Mrs Shuttlworth gather the collection and Desmond was on of the demo pilots until he retired a few years ago.
Hope your holiday was good. You are correct on the spelling of Dzus (glad you were able to figure out what I was saying). I just looked up Dzus and there appear to be many, many type of Dzus fasteners - quarter turn, push lock on-turn release, screw lead and others. One of the mdoel airplane manufacturers use to market or carry a small version (1/4" dia.?) for models, but all of my stuff was too small to find a use for them back then. Maybe with the 1/5th Waco (and larger) they can be used for a scale hatch fastener.
How close are you to the Shuttlworth Collection? As you may know, a fellow Brit, Desmond Penrose came over to the US and was able to fly the only airworthy DH-4 here at Creve Coeur Aiport and became the second highest flight time pilot (living) of the DH-4 during the Waco Fly In. His father helped Mrs Shuttlworth gather the collection and Desmond was on of the demo pilots until he retired a few years ago.
#3356
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
John, and John,
Is it not true that most of the fastners on the WACO's are common screws (slotted head) vs the more modern Dzus buttons?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Is it not true that most of the fastners on the WACO's are common screws (slotted head) vs the more modern Dzus buttons?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
#3357
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Uxbridge,
MA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: WACO YMF
Does anyone know where I can download a picture of an instument panel so I can size and print it to mount on my new SIG WACO SRE? Or can someone offer me a better way to do this? thanks
#3358
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Waco Kid
Does anyone know where I can download a picture of an instument panel so I can size and print it to mount on my new SIG WACO SRE? Or can someone offer me a better way to do this? thanks
Does anyone know where I can download a picture of an instument panel so I can size and print it to mount on my new SIG WACO SRE? Or can someone offer me a better way to do this? thanks
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
#3359
RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
On the YMF Classic most of the panels are held on with screws. The panel in the middle of picture #1 on YMF (NC 14081) is held closed by Dzus fasteners as is the the Oil Cap cover (top, above the panel) with a thumb screw Dzus fastener. In picture #2 of UBF-2 (NC 2091K) the front panels are held on by Dzus fasteners (indicated by red lines).
On the YMF Classic most of the panels are held on with screws. The panel in the middle of picture #1 on YMF (NC 14081) is held closed by Dzus fasteners as is the the Oil Cap cover (top, above the panel) with a thumb screw Dzus fastener. In picture #2 of UBF-2 (NC 2091K) the front panels are held on by Dzus fasteners (indicated by red lines).
#3360
RE: WACO YMF
Bill, Waco Kid,
I only have one shot of the I/P of the SRE (NC 58785) from the Fly In. Ken may have some more, he was taking more interior shots than I was. Waco Kid, send me a PM with your e-mail addy and I can send the jpg file (about 2.24 meg) so you can get a clearer shot.
Whoops, my mistake, the photo below is NOT a SRE instrument panel, it may be from a Stinson and I had it mixed in with the SRE.
Use the photos that khodges posted a entries further down.
I only have one shot of the I/P of the SRE (NC 58785) from the Fly In. Ken may have some more, he was taking more interior shots than I was. Waco Kid, send me a PM with your e-mail addy and I can send the jpg file (about 2.24 meg) so you can get a clearer shot.
Whoops, my mistake, the photo below is NOT a SRE instrument panel, it may be from a Stinson and I had it mixed in with the SRE.
Use the photos that khodges posted a entries further down.
#3361
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
Thanks John, I'm trying to not use any phillips type of screws on this one. The difference between the Dzus fastner and the common slotted head screw should be difficult to discern at this scale. The Dzus fastner (screw head half turn) would have a couple of small fastners adjacent the fastner head to replicate the spring mounts. Maybe a couple of straight pin heads to replicate the smaller fastners. What do you think?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
#3362
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
John,
Looks just as a Double Deperdussin setup should.
Is that the right terminology for that wheel setup?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Looks just as a Double Deperdussin setup should.
Is that the right terminology for that wheel setup?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
#3363
RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
I don't know what the terminology is, but it works the basically the same way as the Cessna 150 (N 6253G) I used to fly many years ago. Push the wheel in and down you go, pull out and you go up, turn the wheel and roll left or right. Notice the 3 rollers to guide the column in and out.
The screws on the YMF Classic (NC 14081) happen to be Phillips Head as are the Dzus fasteners on the access panel. I don't know what style they used on the early YMFs.
I don't know what the terminology is, but it works the basically the same way as the Cessna 150 (N 6253G) I used to fly many years ago. Push the wheel in and down you go, pull out and you go up, turn the wheel and roll left or right. Notice the 3 rollers to guide the column in and out.
The screws on the YMF Classic (NC 14081) happen to be Phillips Head as are the Dzus fasteners on the access panel. I don't know what style they used on the early YMFs.
#3364
My Feedback: (48)
RE: WACO YMF
SuperCub Man & All
Sorry I haven't been posting much in the last month or so I get side tracked and haven't been building much but I'm getting back on track now.
Jim, I cut a pattern out of wood on my table saw and pounded each corrugation one at a time It's time consuming but I think It will look good when finished. I used yellow glue and it held good I couldn't pull it apart when it dried. I'll tack a pic of the pattern tomoral and post it so you can see. I also have one I made that's to short if you'd like to see first hand I will send it to you.
Sorry I haven't been posting much in the last month or so I get side tracked and haven't been building much but I'm getting back on track now.
Jim, I cut a pattern out of wood on my table saw and pounded each corrugation one at a time It's time consuming but I think It will look good when finished. I used yellow glue and it held good I couldn't pull it apart when it dried. I'll tack a pic of the pattern tomoral and post it so you can see. I also have one I made that's to short if you'd like to see first hand I will send it to you.
#3365
My Feedback: (1)
RE: WACO YMF
Waco Kid Bill, John-- I looked through my close-ups and I saw mostly slotted screws on all the metal panels and windshield frames of the various types at CCA. Dzus fasteners on some of the frequently removed panels, but they were straight slots also, just marginally larger heads.
As for interior of an SRE, here's what I have; John, I think your picture is a different plane. I also have that panel from a different angle. I don't remember what plane it is, but my in my shot it is towards the back of one of the HARM hangars. If you look at the windshield, it also has a couple more panels than the SRE windshield. Also note the yokes slide in and out of the panel, rather than being part of a "Y" setup like the other cabin Wacos. The interior shots I took of the SRE were made at the Belleville Airpark.
As for interior of an SRE, here's what I have; John, I think your picture is a different plane. I also have that panel from a different angle. I don't remember what plane it is, but my in my shot it is towards the back of one of the HARM hangars. If you look at the windshield, it also has a couple more panels than the SRE windshield. Also note the yokes slide in and out of the panel, rather than being part of a "Y" setup like the other cabin Wacos. The interior shots I took of the SRE were made at the Belleville Airpark.
#3366
RE: WACO YMF
Waco Kid, Bill, Ken,
Looks like Ken is correct, I made a mistake on the SRE instrument panel. After looking at the pictures Ken posted, I double checked mine and it is from another plane towards the back of the hanger (see the hanger roof), sorry. Kens pictures are correct for the SRE as it was parked just inside the hanger door (see the cars outside).
Ken is correct, most of the screws on the various Wacos at CCA are slotted as well as the Dzus fasteners (p1). The picture is a close up of the type used on the UBF-2 (NC 2091K). The 1987 YMF (NC 14081) is made by Waco Classic Aircraft up in Michigan and may be their method of construction.
Looks like Ken is correct, I made a mistake on the SRE instrument panel. After looking at the pictures Ken posted, I double checked mine and it is from another plane towards the back of the hanger (see the hanger roof), sorry. Kens pictures are correct for the SRE as it was parked just inside the hanger door (see the cars outside).
Ken is correct, most of the screws on the various Wacos at CCA are slotted as well as the Dzus fasteners (p1). The picture is a close up of the type used on the UBF-2 (NC 2091K). The 1987 YMF (NC 14081) is made by Waco Classic Aircraft up in Michigan and may be their method of construction.
#3367
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: BelvedereKent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 766
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: WACO YMF
Skylark,
Yes great holiday, spent all the time in heavy but warm rain, I was on Windemere lake a good part of the time with the Steam Boat Association of Great Britain. I have a twin cylinder compound launch engine built by my aeromodeller uncle about 80 years ago. My cousin gave it to me recently and I wanted to see the size of vessel it might drive, maybe a radio model. In the event it is big enough for an 18' - 20' launch on inland waters. I also sent time on a 7" railway layout covering some 20 acres. Many of the boats were home built using 3/8" by 1/2" planks (small tongue and groove to aid assembly) glued with epoxy and subsequently covered inside with one layer of glass & epoxy and the outer layer with two layers of glass & epoxy painted. The black lines between the deck planks on vessel were achieved by using a mix of epoxy and lamp black. Not one of the most sucessful techniques due to the difficulty of handling the mix. The whole process was very familiar except for the scale. Where the glass covered the inside of the planking it was invisible to my eyes and just looked superb with a coat of varnish. I Met some great people and even one to discuss model aircraft with.
Bill,
About the Dzus fasteners, it was in 1951 when I used them. I know they were on the Vickers Viking then and maybe the DC3 as well. Time heals they say but access to memory also heals over, given time.
old git - - - - - aka John L.
WACO Brotherhood No. 14.
#3369
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Georgian Bluffs,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
RE: WACO YMF
Here are 2 pics that I found on the web. Credit to their authors. This stuff is hard to find. A peak in the door of NC58785. The I/P of NC1252W. This is all I have on this that you fellows haven't provided me with.
John
John
#3370
RE: WACO YMF
Joe A,
You and Ken are both correct, it is not the SRE I/p. I agree it may be the Stinson (or maybe a Fairchild) as both pictures are from the same plane, right down to the tape on the lower switch panel and wire hanging out, but have not been able to find my Stinson pictures. If I have some, they are in a general Hanger folder and not a specific folder just for the Stinson. I'll probably check it this weekend, as I will be out there Sunday. The picture I posted was in the SRE folder and was only 2 numbers out of the SRE picture sequence. For SRE reference, use the photos Ken posted.
You and Ken are both correct, it is not the SRE I/p. I agree it may be the Stinson (or maybe a Fairchild) as both pictures are from the same plane, right down to the tape on the lower switch panel and wire hanging out, but have not been able to find my Stinson pictures. If I have some, they are in a general Hanger folder and not a specific folder just for the Stinson. I'll probably check it this weekend, as I will be out there Sunday. The picture I posted was in the SRE folder and was only 2 numbers out of the SRE picture sequence. For SRE reference, use the photos Ken posted.
#3372
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: St. Catharines,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: WACO YMF
Hi Dan - Thanks for that. I'm surprised that yellow glue was so effective. I will try it with Titebond ll. I copied your method from your original post and made the jig from hardwood as in pix #1. I used auto body repair aluminum available in rolls from our local auto store (Cdn. Tire Corp.) It is only .015 and very light. I glued a 1/16" piano wire to a hardwood block with CA and hammered away. You'll notice I got 34 corrugations as per the full scale aileron to fit in the 13-3/4" model aileron space. (Very proud of myself!) However the wooden block split after making one piece as it couldn't take the pounding. The wood overlapping the wire flattened out the aluminum between corrugations and made a nice looking piece. (Pix #2) Since I have to make 24 of them, (3 aircraft) I shall get a piece of steel and silver solder the wire to it. I have trouble with the piece curving if I don't carefully line up the wire with the jig, when hammering, but slow wins the race here and proper clamping is also essential.
So I won't need your sample - but thanks - and I appreciate your help. One other thing - what are you using for rivets? or are you?? I thought pin heads might work but as yet I haven't found any small enough - and what a pain mounting them!!
So I won't need your sample - but thanks - and I appreciate your help. One other thing - what are you using for rivets? or are you?? I thought pin heads might work but as yet I haven't found any small enough - and what a pain mounting them!!
#3373
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: BelvedereKent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 766
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: WACO YMF
1/5 Scale Waco YMF Bi-plane kit, unopened box
Item number: 150152251816
Hi there Borthers,
The above is an eBay item, a Pica kit in case anyone is interested.
By the way skylark, yes I have visited Old Warden on a number of occasions, a long way with Brit traffic but worth it. Many years ago I attended a Model Flight Day (Free Flight) when spectators and fliers alike congregated on the runway area and proceeded to fly. Spectators and models intersected sometimes luckily without injury. It's not like that any more.
old git - - - - - aka John L.
WACO Brotherhood No. 14.
#3374
RE: WACO YMF
SuperCub Man,
Looking good, the corrugations are just about perfect. Let us know what a panel weighs if possible.
Glue (yellow, RC-56 or similar) may be your best bet for the rivets. The full size rivets are small, domed on top or outside, flat on the bottom or inside. The photos below may help (from a YKS).
Looking good, the corrugations are just about perfect. Let us know what a panel weighs if possible.
Glue (yellow, RC-56 or similar) may be your best bet for the rivets. The full size rivets are small, domed on top or outside, flat on the bottom or inside. The photos below may help (from a YKS).
#3375
My Feedback: (48)
RE: WACO YMF
SuperCub Man
Looks like you have the plan. It was suggested to me to have a set of steal patterns made from a machine shop and pass them around to any one to use. I looked in to having a set of templates made but had no luck. If any one knows of a machine shop that can cut a set of templates out of steal I would chip in on the cost to have them made If enough people chip in it may no cost that much???
Looks like you have the plan. It was suggested to me to have a set of steal patterns made from a machine shop and pass them around to any one to use. I looked in to having a set of templates made but had no luck. If any one knows of a machine shop that can cut a set of templates out of steal I would chip in on the cost to have them made If enough people chip in it may no cost that much???