Someone mentioned warped wing
02-12-2013, 11:20 AM
#51
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
I was wondering how long it would take you to see my last post and respond, You know what Zor, I like you, because you have spunk!!! 
Now, you stated A light weight model flies like a light weight model . It has less mass and less inertia to handle the wind and the wind gusts. It also, of course, has less strength and less resistance to damage in a crash. It often determines if the crashed model ends up in the garbage or on the repair bench.
A lightweight model dampens the effect of gusts faster than it's porky counterpart so they both for the most part act the same in gusty conditions Zor. Guys that only know to build heavy always state the same reason for building that way; they take a crash better and heavy flies better, oh especially in the wind.
That is all just a myth because that MASS and INERTIA your talking about, sure does come into play when you pile drive it in. Kinda like catching an 8 oz baseball at 100 mph, good catch right. Now increase the weight of that ball to maybe 2 or 3 pounds and catch that baby inbound at 100 mph. After you get out of the hospital, let us know how heavier does not hit with more energy...
Bob
Now, you stated A light weight model flies like a light weight model . It has less mass and less inertia to handle the wind and the wind gusts. It also, of course, has less strength and less resistance to damage in a crash. It often determines if the crashed model ends up in the garbage or on the repair bench. A lightweight model dampens the effect of gusts faster than it's porky counterpart so they both for the most part act the same in gusty conditions Zor. Guys that only know to build heavy always state the same reason for building that way; they take a crash better and heavy flies better, oh especially in the wind.
That is all just a myth because that MASS and INERTIA your talking about, sure does come into play when you pile drive it in. Kinda like catching an 8 oz baseball at 100 mph, good catch right. Now increase the weight of that ball to maybe 2 or 3 pounds and catch that baby inbound at 100 mph. After you get out of the hospital, let us know how heavier does not hit with more energy... Bob
02-12-2013, 12:00 PM
#52
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RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
Regarding weight vs strength...
I used to build for strength and pretty much accepted the weight gain. But over the years I have found it is far better to build the airframe as strong and lightweight as possible. A lighter plane built strong will sustain less damage than a heavily built airframe. As far as wind it not the weight it's the amount of power, I fly 1 and 2 lb aircraft when most would stay home because of the wind (but these airplanes are considered way overpowered by most) and penetration is not an issue. Two of the planes in particular that are in the 2 lb range are a 43 inch span Kadet and a Easy Star both powered in the 800 watt range no problem flying them on a windy day, and both have taken some hard hits and are still flying.
A far superior method to glue fillets are gussets made of light ply (laminated pieces of balsa), and my preferred method (borrowed from timber framing) of mortising the wood to give you more glue area and a stronger joint an example of which is pictured below.
I used to build for strength and pretty much accepted the weight gain. But over the years I have found it is far better to build the airframe as strong and lightweight as possible. A lighter plane built strong will sustain less damage than a heavily built airframe. As far as wind it not the weight it's the amount of power, I fly 1 and 2 lb aircraft when most would stay home because of the wind (but these airplanes are considered way overpowered by most) and penetration is not an issue. Two of the planes in particular that are in the 2 lb range are a 43 inch span Kadet and a Easy Star both powered in the 800 watt range no problem flying them on a windy day, and both have taken some hard hits and are still flying.
A far superior method to glue fillets are gussets made of light ply (laminated pieces of balsa), and my preferred method (borrowed from timber framing) of mortising the wood to give you more glue area and a stronger joint an example of which is pictured below.
02-12-2013, 01:30 PM
#53
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
ORIGINAL: iron eagel
Regarding weight vs strength...
I used to build for strength and pretty much accepted the weight gain. But over the years I have found it is far better to build the airframe as strong and lightweight as possible. A lighter plane built strong will sustain less damage than a heavily built airframe. As far as wind it not the weight it's the amount of power, I fly 1 and 2 lb aircraft when most would stay home because of the wind (but these airplanes are considered way overpowered by most) and penetration is not an issue. Two of the planes in particular that are in the 2 lb range are a 43 inch span Kadet and a Easy Star both powered in the 800 watt range no problem flying them on a windy day, and both have taken some hard hits and are still flying.
A far superior method to glue fillets are gussets made of light ply (laminated pieces of balsa), and my preferred method (borrowed from timber framing) of mortising the wood to give you more glue area and a stronger joint an example of which is pictured below.
Regarding weight vs strength...
I used to build for strength and pretty much accepted the weight gain. But over the years I have found it is far better to build the airframe as strong and lightweight as possible. A lighter plane built strong will sustain less damage than a heavily built airframe. As far as wind it not the weight it's the amount of power, I fly 1 and 2 lb aircraft when most would stay home because of the wind (but these airplanes are considered way overpowered by most) and penetration is not an issue. Two of the planes in particular that are in the 2 lb range are a 43 inch span Kadet and a Easy Star both powered in the 800 watt range no problem flying them on a windy day, and both have taken some hard hits and are still flying.
A far superior method to glue fillets are gussets made of light ply (laminated pieces of balsa), and my preferred method (borrowed from timber framing) of mortising the wood to give you more glue area and a stronger joint an example of which is pictured below.
Bob
02-12-2013, 05:35 PM
#54
Banned
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
ORIGINAL: sensei
I was wondering how long it would take you to see my last post and respond, You know what Zor, I like you, because you have spunk!!!
I was wondering how long it would take you to see my last post and respond, You know what Zor, I like you, because you have spunk!!!
Gheeee ___I discover some of my attributes even in my old age; it is fascinating
.
Now, you stated A light weight model flies like a light weight model . It has less mass and less inertia to handle the wind and the wind gusts. It also, of course, has less strength and less resistance to damage in a crash. It often determines if the crashed model ends up in the garbage or on the repair bench.
One that was built by "Joe Doe" and weigh 5 lbs (a weightyou previously mentioned) and
the one that you built and weigh 3.5 lbs
They are flying in formation (close to each other and at the same speed) and a sudden gust of wind comes on.
Having the same areas presented to the wind the gust will create the same force on both.
If we both believe that accelaration is proportional to force and inversely proportional to mass then the lighter model will accelerate (be disturbd) more than the heavier one and we see that at the flying field.
A lightweight model dampens the effect of gusts faster than it's porky counterpart so they both for the most part act the same in gusty conditions Zor.
It also explain why many fellows do not fly their light weight models if the wind is either too fast or too gusty while others with heavier wing loading are enjoyng their flight.
Guys that only know to build heavy always state the same reason for building that way; they take a crash better and heavy flies better, oh especially in the wind. That is all just a myth because that MASS and INERTIA your talking about, sure does come into play when you pile drive it in.
That is all just a myth because that MASS and INERTIA your talking about, sure does come into play when you pile drive it in.
The gluing technique and the covering and finishing method is also very much factors of what are the results of an abnormal landing.
Kinda like catching an 8 oz baseball at 100 mph, good catch right. Now increase the weight of that ball to maybe 2 or 3 pounds and catch that baby inbound at 100 mph. After you get out of the hospital, let us know heavier does not hit with more energy...
Garbage can of repair bench.
To be noted that with our models we are not talking about a 1:4 ratio (8 oz vs 2 lbs) or a 1:6 ratio (8 oz vs 3 lbs) as you quote for a baseball. Nearly always our ratios are more like 1:1.5 or much less. Comparing an 11 lbs model to a 7.5 lbs model as previously mentioned in previous postings. That ratio is an extreme rarely encountered.
Bob
I will read you if you respond but I sincerely think I have nothing more to add to this discussion.
Zor
02-12-2013, 07:33 PM
#55
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
Zor,
You talk the talk, I will give you that, but tell me Zor; do you walk the walk? Have you in your years of infinite wisdom gave any effort creating years worth of build threads documentation along with supporting flight videos qualifying your extensive knowledge base, if yes; please direct us to them so we may learn from you and maybe, see the (light), no pun intended of course
, or are we going to hear yet another tale of woe about all this astounding heavier flies better information of yours that was never documented and only exist in your memories now.
I don't know about you Zor buddy, but I am having fun now
Bob
You talk the talk, I will give you that, but tell me Zor; do you walk the walk? Have you in your years of infinite wisdom gave any effort creating years worth of build threads documentation along with supporting flight videos qualifying your extensive knowledge base, if yes; please direct us to them so we may learn from you and maybe, see the (light), no pun intended of course
, or are we going to hear yet another tale of woe about all this astounding heavier flies better information of yours that was never documented and only exist in your memories now. I don't know about you Zor buddy, but I am having fun now
Bob
02-13-2013, 10:20 AM
#56
Banned
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
ORIGINAL: iron eagel
Regarding weight vs strength...
I used to build for strength and pretty much accepted the weight gain. But over the years I have found it is far better to build the airframe as strong and lightweight as possible. A lighter plane built strong will sustain less damage than a heavily built airframe.
Regarding weight vs strength...
I used to build for strength and pretty much accepted the weight gain. But over the years I have found it is far better to build the airframe as strong and lightweight as possible. A lighter plane built strong will sustain less damage than a heavily built airframe.
Mortising is a good idea to keep the piece in place and increase the binding area. It is not practical for every glued join in a model. Filleting all joins is easy and practical.
Built strong also mean a covering and finish that is hard to tear. A covering in which each thread of the fabric has to break in tension and thus resist tearing and each thread is cemented to the frame.
Both do not add any significant weight to the model.
As far as wind it not the weight it's the amount of power, I fly 1 and 2 lb aircraft when most would stay home because of the wind (but these airplanes are considered way overpowered by most) and penetration is not an issue. Two of the planes in particular that are in the 2 lb range are a 43 inch span Kadet and a Easy Star both powered in the 800 watt range no problem flying them on a windy day, and both have taken some hard hits and are still flying.
.I see many fellows that prefer ARFs and install propulsion that they trust will avoid a crash if they can point the nose straight up and climb to a safe altitude to try again. That is not my enjoyment of flying a model.
To each his own in the hobby.
A far superior method to glue fillets are gussets made of light ply (laminated pieces of balsa), and my preferred method (borrowed from timber framing) of mortising the wood to give you more glue area and a stronger joint an example of which is pictured below.
Gussets are often used as part of the design but are not practical for every joint in the model. Glue filleting ismore practical and usable at all joints.
iron eagel
I thought your posting was worth some response.
No one has to agree with my outlooks in the hobby.
P.S.: for "sensei" that no doubt will read this posting.
I is evident that you (sensei) have already made up your mind.
You are asking for directions to build logs and videos.
You probably already know that clicking on my name brings you to all my postings and you may even have done that already. I do not have facilities for videos and consequently did not have any incentive to make some.
You have already made your own judgment about Zor anyway.
It would change nothing. I enjoy the hobby and wish you all the enjoyment as well.
Zor
02-13-2013, 11:00 AM
#57
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RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
Sorry about the size of the picture but it's crappy and was just to illustrate the type of joinery I use. (I build furniture and cabinets as another hobby.)
Actually, I am not at all into 3 D and airplanes flying like helicopters.
I enjoy flying pattern and aerobatics for the most part, and the beauty is that with models you don't have to deal with the physical abuse to do it.[8D] I overpower the airframes because it is often fairly windy where I live and I like to be able to fly without worry about being able to get the plane back when flying in a strong wind so I can do upwind leg in a reasonable amount of time. Plus when the wind is coming right down the runway it kinda fun to be able to walk faster than the airplane is flying. But regardless, I like planes, even my scale ones, to be fairly responsive and in order to do that I have to get as much air into my airplanes as possible. As a result one of the primary tools I use in building is a scale, and I have only done that for the past ten years or so, because I used to build with strength as the primary goal. But I have found that if you keep the weight down you be surprised how little damage can come about from and accident as the video link below will show. The plane hit the ground hard (twice), and survived with only a minimal amount of damage (the 1/8 inch thick plywood motor mount) and could have been back in the air in less than five minutes. But given that this setup is spinning up to over 42K rpm in some configurations I had to replace the mount. And I know all about the skin carrying the load as this is the frame for the plane in the video weighing in at less than an ounce, with the wings fully sheathed it weighed about 8 oz. The all up weight of how it was flown in the video is 2.5 lbs of that 8 oz is the battery and another 5 oz for the 100 amp CC esc.
This ain't 3D. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjSOl9bjzb0
You ought to see the type of abuse my wife's 5 lb Lt- 40 can take.
As far as building it's all about what works for you, but don't be afraid to experiment, and keep an open mind. Heck that's how I ended up trying carbon fiber veil over balsa from a C/L stunt guy.
Fixing a warp or a break, and/or, making a part as good as new should be the goal, but keeping it light is as important in modeling as it is in full scale.
)Actually, I am not at all into 3 D and airplanes flying like helicopters.
I enjoy flying pattern and aerobatics for the most part, and the beauty is that with models you don't have to deal with the physical abuse to do it.[8D] I overpower the airframes because it is often fairly windy where I live and I like to be able to fly without worry about being able to get the plane back when flying in a strong wind so I can do upwind leg in a reasonable amount of time. Plus when the wind is coming right down the runway it kinda fun to be able to walk faster than the airplane is flying. But regardless, I like planes, even my scale ones, to be fairly responsive and in order to do that I have to get as much air into my airplanes as possible. As a result one of the primary tools I use in building is a scale, and I have only done that for the past ten years or so, because I used to build with strength as the primary goal. But I have found that if you keep the weight down you be surprised how little damage can come about from and accident as the video link below will show. The plane hit the ground hard (twice), and survived with only a minimal amount of damage (the 1/8 inch thick plywood motor mount) and could have been back in the air in less than five minutes. But given that this setup is spinning up to over 42K rpm in some configurations I had to replace the mount. And I know all about the skin carrying the load as this is the frame for the plane in the video weighing in at less than an ounce, with the wings fully sheathed it weighed about 8 oz. The all up weight of how it was flown in the video is 2.5 lbs of that 8 oz is the battery and another 5 oz for the 100 amp CC esc.
This ain't 3D. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjSOl9bjzb0
You ought to see the type of abuse my wife's 5 lb Lt- 40 can take.
As far as building it's all about what works for you, but don't be afraid to experiment, and keep an open mind.
Heck that's how I ended up trying carbon fiber veil over balsa from a C/L stunt guy. Fixing a warp or a break, and/or, making a part as good as new should be the goal, but keeping it light is as important in modeling as it is in full scale.
02-13-2013, 06:02 PM
#60
Banned
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
GaryHarris,
I read your post #58 before you edited it.
No doubb many others also read it.
It did not enhance your presence in the forum.
Now that you realized that and edited I think you deserve recognition
for acting favorably toward your reputation as a nice hobbyist and modeler.
Having studied psychology helped me understand why you had posted as you initially did.
I am not holding any resentment and just wish to be one of your friends.
Zor
02-13-2013, 06:53 PM
#61
Banned
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
ORIGINAL: sensei
PS. for "sensei" that no doubt will read this posting.
I is evident that you (sensei) have already made up your mind.
You are asking for directions to build logs and videos.
You probably already know that clicking on my name brings you to all my postings and you may even have done that already. I do not have facilities for videos and consequently did not have any incentive to make some.
You have already made your own judgment about Zor anyway.
It would change nothing.
Zor,
You most certainly did not let me down buddy, I knew when I asked you to please direct us to the Zor technical airframe building clinic so we may learn, you would only come back with a load of horse s#%t while providing nothing of use, and why??? Because you have nothing to offer in a build forum. Earlier in this thread you also gave lame examples of testing methods also assuring me that you don't understand what you are talking about, then you based an entire glueing methodology from your ludicrous finger findings. Unbelievable!
You also stated that a well glued and engineered heavier airframe would sustain far less damage then it's stellar counterpart in the event of a sudden stoppage impact event allowing reparability of only the heavy... Now lets take a close look at what your definition of a well glued and engineered airframe is based on the pictures you posted of your Skybolt in 2009 when you joined RCU. Unbelievable!
In closing you call yourself an expert pilot but I am sorry, Taking off without setting you timer and running out of fuel especially with a new airplane is such a rookie move, oh then basing an entire delusional theory on the survivability of a heavyweight aircraft settling in the tree tops. Unbelievable!
Bob
PS. for "sensei" that no doubt will read this posting.
I is evident that you (sensei) have already made up your mind.
You are asking for directions to build logs and videos.
You probably already know that clicking on my name brings you to all my postings and you may even have done that already. I do not have facilities for videos and consequently did not have any incentive to make some.
You have already made your own judgment about Zor anyway.
It would change nothing.
Zor,
You most certainly did not let me down buddy, I knew when I asked you to please direct us to the Zor technical airframe building clinic so we may learn, you would only come back with a load of horse s#%t while providing nothing of use, and why??? Because you have nothing to offer in a build forum. Earlier in this thread you also gave lame examples of testing methods also assuring me that you don't understand what you are talking about, then you based an entire glueing methodology from your ludicrous finger findings. Unbelievable!
You also stated that a well glued and engineered heavier airframe would sustain far less damage then it's stellar counterpart in the event of a sudden stoppage impact event allowing reparability of only the heavy... Now lets take a close look at what your definition of a well glued and engineered airframe is based on the pictures you posted of your Skybolt in 2009 when you joined RCU. Unbelievable!
In closing you call yourself an expert pilot but I am sorry, Taking off without setting you timer and running out of fuel especially with a new airplane is such a rookie move, oh then basing an entire delusional theory on the survivability of a heavyweight aircraft settling in the tree tops. Unbelievable!
Bob
I really think you are a nice fellow and proving what I previously wrote.
You are having fun degrading another modeler and it does not bother me at all.
I have read much worst.
. Your comments and remarks reflect on you. You do not see me writing posts like yours.
When the Skybolt ran out of fuel, me and a friend were taking turns flying it.
I went to the bathroom and he was supposed to bring it in. He enjoyed the flying a bit too long.
The model is not considered abnormally heavy. All these kits have turned out at 10 to 12 lbs.
You have not responded to my invitation to show what you claimed; namely a weight reduction down to 7.5 lbs in this categuory of weight and size.
The two pictures attached to your post have no comments in your text. I think they should have had some information for the readers.
You have made up your mind that you consider me a "rookie". That is fine if it pleases you. It does not change me in anyway.
I still just wish to be friendly with you but of course that is your choice. You had no valid reason that justify your nasty comments.
I do not think I wrote anything against your image in the forum.
Zor
02-13-2013, 07:05 PM
#62
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RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
Zor. Were just grown men playing with model planes and the reason we do so is multi faceted. At least for me one of them is to escape from the daily grind of work and life in general. Today is my 55th birthday and the last thing I want to do is argue or see some dude making too much of things because he can from his keybored. Your annoying.
Have a nice evening.
Have a nice evening.
02-13-2013, 09:11 PM
#65
Banned
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
ORIGINAL: GaryHarris
Thanks. But consider this piece of advice. Your not all you think you are.
Sorry Mods. But it needs to be said.
Thanks. But consider this piece of advice. Your not all you think you are.
Sorry Mods. But it needs to be said.
. He is a "mind reader" and knows or think he knows what I think I am. What I really am is an old modeler that has enjoyed the hobby since the 1950s and enjoy particularly to know whatmakes things function as they do. I like to learn how the items relate or affecteach other. I like to search for improvements in building, how to best compromise for weight and strength. I like to increase my knowlege whenever possible.
I fully realize that in the universality of the modelers fraternity there will always be someone who enjoys to criticize someone else whether justified or not. It takes all kinds to make a world and we can see that everyday by just looking at the media news of the world.
Can we go back to "how to prevent (avoid) warping in our model structures ?
Zor
02-14-2013, 06:24 AM
#66
RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
The twisted wing thing has already been answered.
I realized something Zor; you’re actually very gifted at baiting guys in the front end by dropping key words and fraises in your posts, then your special talent is debating the issues that arise from your posts, you then switch your tactics from the front end of your debate to I am this nice guy that only wishes to be your friend so why are you attacking me at the tail end of your debate. This is what allows you to get under so many guys skin as you have already demonstrated through your 2000+ post and continue to irritate like a tick. That is precisely why you have wound up in so many debates since your joining into RCU in 2009.
I think we have demonstrated here that you are a very talented debater and you would probably do well in politics or something, but after reviewing your airframe build pictures, you’re gluing methodology, you’re inconclusive testing methods, and you’re overall fit and finish techniques, Zor, you can’t design, you don’t understand materials interface loads, or bond lines, and Zor, one more thing and this may come as a surprise buddy but you are definitely not a builder, I am sorry, but your not as illustrated by these pictures of your work you asked me to re-post... So why are you really in a build forum giving advice?
Bob
I realized something Zor; you’re actually very gifted at baiting guys in the front end by dropping key words and fraises in your posts, then your special talent is debating the issues that arise from your posts, you then switch your tactics from the front end of your debate to I am this nice guy that only wishes to be your friend so why are you attacking me at the tail end of your debate. This is what allows you to get under so many guys skin as you have already demonstrated through your 2000+ post and continue to irritate like a tick. That is precisely why you have wound up in so many debates since your joining into RCU in 2009.
I think we have demonstrated here that you are a very talented debater and you would probably do well in politics or something, but after reviewing your airframe build pictures, you’re gluing methodology, you’re inconclusive testing methods, and you’re overall fit and finish techniques, Zor, you can’t design, you don’t understand materials interface loads, or bond lines, and Zor, one more thing and this may come as a surprise buddy but you are definitely not a builder, I am sorry, but your not as illustrated by these pictures of your work you asked me to re-post... So why are you really in a build forum giving advice?
Bob
02-14-2013, 09:58 PM
#68
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RE: Someone mentioned warped wing
ORIGINAL: GaryHarris
Sorry folks, but us Texas boys speak our minds.
Sorry folks, but us Texas boys speak our minds.
But with all due respect getnlemen, you're trying to nail Jello to a tree. You're trying to reason with an institutionalized mind (penal or psychiatric - or both) and you will not get through. Solving Rubic's Cube is far easier.
