EscapeFlyer

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Wow! And I've been complaining because Minnesota seems to be stuck in the 60 degree temps!

A few things for consideration. I plan on using the ST 90 to start Sportsman Pattern. I've had a great experience using it on my Sig Hog Bipe. Granted it only weighed 8.5lbs, which is why it had unlimited vertical. At an estimated 10lb range, It won't have unlimited vertical, but it should pull through Sportsman pattern manuvers just fine (I hope).

I've been thinking about the fuse double mods everyone is suggesting. Since this is meant to be a competition aircraft, and to save a little weight, would the ST 90 stress the airframe to the point that the airplane would be a danger to those I'm flying around?

I plan to upgrade as I progress, and since I'm building more than just one extra, I could prepare for the bigger powerplant with the fuse mods on the other aircraft.

Any opinions?

EscapeFlyer

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Also-

I operate the Futaba 9C. Has anyone had a bad experience with the 2.4ghz conversion? I know Spread Spectrum works well, but I'm curious about the conversion kit.

I can post progress of my build, but it may take a while because I don't have the funds just yet for the FGS cowl & wheel pants, or the carbon fiber forward swept landing gear. Plus I am making templates while I build. Like I said before, I plan on having spares.

I have a link to a club website I took from RCU that shows how to pull canopies. I think I'll give it a try. I'll try to post the link if anyone is interrested.

Edit post: Didn't work!

dobra

No probs at all. I run spectrum module in a 9c and rx is a ar7000

WestCoastFlyer

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I have a 9C. Page 8 of the User Manual:

• Non-Futaba brand modules are not FCC certified for use with this radio and therefore are against FCC regulation to use. Doing so also voids your AMA insurance.

I wrote to the AMA on July 7 asking if using a Spektrum module would void my AMA insurance. An AMA representative wrote back July 8 saying he would look into it. I haven't heard anything since then.


Edited to add:

Ilikebipes, I know you're concerned about the flat bottom of the fuse and whether it may be a hindrance in some classes of competition. Did these recommendations of modifying the fuse come from an online discussion, or from people you know?

If you want to compete in pattern, you should build a pattern plane.

I recently saw a Futana ARF fly. Very impressive. A little smaller and more agile than the Extra, plus if it goes in it's not heartbreaking.

Here it is. http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN4150

EscapeFlyer

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Truth be told,I don't want to fly the same colors and airplane that everyone else does. I'm not against the arf, but I want to take more pride in what I'm flying. I know that a patten ship is the best for pattern- that makes sence. But the early stages of competition would lend itself well to this airplane.

If I have some success with pattern, I will eventually go that direction.

(I'm not yet schooled in constructing composite aircraft yet. I haven't seen much that wasn't composite or arf construction.)

The concerns came from an article that I think came from a recent Model Aviation release. It could have come from a K Factor publication that was given to me as well. I will find it and let you know. The idea of modifying of the bottom of the fuse were my own, and the fuse doubles came earlier in this thread- I think. It might have come from another CG Extra 300 thread.

Would anyone think the stock assembly of the fuse would pose a danger to anyone because the ST 90 would be too much for this airframe if built without the added fuse doublers? The fuse doubler is not designed into this kit.

Gray Beard

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There is a fuse doubler but it is something like 1/16th or so. I may have posted about the weak spot in this kit. A couple of things to be done is to epoxy in the lightening holes and then use a thicker sheet of ply for the doubler. I don't have the plans right now so I can't see how it was done but the weak spot is right in front of the wing.
The plane is an older design and it was designed for the 60+ size two stroke engines so the problem is caused by those of us that tend to use more power then we really need. In my case the YS 1.20NC with a Pitts Muffler, big anti vibe mount and spinner plus some other odds and ends mounted way up front then 10 or 12 years of heavy use and I broke off the front part of the fuse on a very hard landing.
It's all repaired again and flying just fine, no one can tell I ever hurt it. It was more a ME problem then a design flaw, a .91 two stroke is just fine. It's just something a builder should know about and you can make it bullet proof now during the build if you feel like it. {{or not}}
My plane was used for practice flying the IMAC, it performs exactly like the bigger Extra I have so it's a good choice. I also have a couple of old school Pattern planes. The difference between them and the Extra is the speed of the planes, the pattern planes are faster and react a lot quicker but the Extra can be used very well in Pattern.
Depending on the area you live will decide if you fly Pattern or IMAC. In my area there is no Pattern at all, it's IMAC or nothing.
There are no problems at all building the Extra stock to the plans. You can also buy a canopy from FGS, it just doesn't have the way cool cockpit or floor board.
Make sure you make a template of EVERY part, fuse and everything!! I need them all!!

WestCoastFlyer

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Actually Gray Beard, I don't think it was you, IMO it is nearly a design flaw. The Doubler you're talking about isn't the wire landing gear Tripler is it? Ilikebipes won't be using the wire gear, but he can cut a solid Tripler rather than the slot for the gear, then tie it to hardwood former rather than balsa in the plans. That's what I'd do.

And he can make a solid Doubler, which is probably what you're talking about, and I agree it's not necessary, but as I said I'd use a hardwood former, rather than balsa, directly in front of the gear to tie the fuse. The servo tray design in this area of the fuse gives the fuse strength, but it doesn't necessarily protect the overall design of the airplane with hard landings.

The landing gear location is the only minor "flaw" of the airplane, but its easily solved with forward swept gear, and I think a hardwood former in place of balsa.

Regarding the engine size, the Enya 1.20R in mine is a high rev monster for it's size. I haven't clocked it, but it sure as heck seems to be around 100 mph. Maybe only 80 or 90, maybe more, but a bullet. And even though it's a bullet it flies true. I've flown and seen a lot of different airplanes, this is a great design, very forgiving - which is why the Goldberg Extra has gained acclaim. I can't think of any other airplane that is so forgiving with the upside of performance.

Gray Beard

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I thought we were talking about the fuse doubler not the LG mounting block. I just have the LG block angled then have side braces to help hole it in. Glad I looked, I seemed to have forgoten to drain the tank the last time out!! No wonder it was haevy!! When I was out flying the last time I discovered I had a TX problem and just packed up and came home, that was a couple of weeks ago!!

Gray Beard

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Photos. I wish someone would come up with not just the canopy but the cockpit too!!

EscapeFlyer

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The kit has a fuse doubler inder the wing area, but it does not extend all the way forward to the firewall. This would be a weak spot. My future "kitted" builds will include this modification extending it all the way up to the firewall- if I need a stronger powereplant. If I can keep the weight down, I may never need a larger powerplant.

I am not one who ALWAYS thinks lighter is better. But it would sure help the pocket book. [8D]

WestCoastFlyer

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You'll end up around 10 pounds, the doubler mod won't add much. The way to cut weight is in the covering.

EscapeFlyer

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I was doodlin on paint last night. I had a few ideas.

This would be cool. So would the Raven scheme.

WestCoastFlyer

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Very nice!

In other news, I heard back from the AMA this morning. Using a Spektrum module in the 9C does not void AMA insurance. I know of at least one guy that will be relieved to hear about that.

Gene, I like your idea of placing your tank near CG. I also like your use of heat shrink on connectors. Am I seeing that right? Here's the same view in mine. The battery is encased in a narrow foam block in front of the servo tray. The little gizmo tucked in there is a battery indicator. The canopy shot against the window shows where mine has cracked at the ABS fold, which is no big deal. As a matter of fact the ABS under the canopy hasn't fared well.

Gray Beard

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I try to always place my fuel tank over the CG or just a tad aft of it. One of the reasons I like pumpers. As for my controls and there placement I always wait to hard mount anything until I have the plane completed and in the bones with engine and stuff {stuff is a good word for my planes} mounted. Then I get the plane on my CG stand and start taping things like switches and servos in and on the plane so the CG is almost set. Then I hard mount, remove anything that can get in the way of my covering and have at it. That just gives me room to move things after covering to get the final CG. Saves me a lot of that pre-thinking stuff. I even have a GEM 2000 system on board this one to keep an electronic eye on my controls and battery.
I really like that Raven design, a bit more time involved but it looks like it would be worth the trouble. Good looking scheme. I have never figured out how to do that on a computer. All I can do is email and surf.
I just emailed a fellow I built one of these Extras for and he is sending me back the instructions and plans. I'm almost ready for templates!!!! {Then there is the little problem of the money for buying more wood!} Maybe I should make my new one just a bit bigger and use one of my small gas engines I have sitting around and doing nothing?? Just thinking ahead, I really don't like all this thinking!

dobra

Wish i had done that with mine.
It has been hard getting the C of G right.
My tank is on C of G but the center line is just about 1cm forward..
The weather is still dull and the out look is still rubbish.
Am itching to get this one up.

EscapeFlyer

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Let's talk templates.

Is poster board okay? I'd trace around the kit part with a fine tip sharpe. Any other easy ideas?

WestCoastFlyer

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Ilikebipes it's admirable of you to go to the effort of supporting your fellow modelers to keep a classic design in the air.

As usual, there's an alternative. I contacted Goldberg and was told today the Extra plans can be purchased for $21.97 plus shipping. Goldberg says I can have someone cut the parts for me.

You're off the hook from me asking you for templates. Like I said though, whatever it takes to keep a classic around.

Gray Beard

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I use a number of things for templates. In my case all I need would be the parts traced on bond or butcher paper. That way they can just be folded up and mailed. I was a printer and we called the stuff I use chip board, about 1/6 inch card board, that could be poster board?? Harder to mail and cut but good stuff. I get it free at places like Costco, it is used on the bottom of some of the pallets that things like soda and water comes on, they just love to get rid of it!! Just bond paper is fine though so the fuse sides and doublers can be traced. The best stuff I have used is called See Temp and advertised in modeling magazines but you have to buy it, butcher paper is free if you ask nice and smile!! See Temp cost money. I just use a good pen or pencil to trace the parts.
West, kit plans are not used for kit cutting, they do not show the formers or ribs that need cutting. When I buy plans for scratch building they have all the parts that need cutting and the lay out for building. Different type of plans.
And I'm willing to trade a set of plans for the templates if you are ever wanting to try to cut your own kit and build your own plane. I have some extra sets for some Bipes too!! Just a thought/offer!

EscapeFlyer

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West,

Did Goldberg (Great Planes) indicate there are templates out there somewhere already?

They might be referring yor to someone that has a set of templates from the kit to trace and cut.

Extra sets of the plans are worth the investment though.

Bipes.

WestCoastFlyer

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Bipes, in my email to them, in addition to asking for the price of the plans I also basically asked in a round about way if they knew of anyone who had the plans and was selling the parts with permission. The answer I received did not address that issue. I received the price of the plans. They're great about emailing right back, shoot them an email.

Gene, my plan is simply to forward the plans to a pro and have them cut the kit for me.

EscapeFlyer

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West,

I've never used a professional kit cutter, but I think they require templates as well. (I've always cut my own pieces.)

Brian

WestCoastFlyer

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I don't know the answer either, all I know is that I've got an old set of plans of a Jenny from a friend of mine, and he told me the name of the guy that'd cut the parts for me if I'd like to go that way.

Also, I think there's a guy on RCU from Oregon that'll take your plans, convert to CAD for a laser cutter, then anyone could cut the parts. I'd already thought about that and would go that route if necessary.

Gray Beard

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These are the type of plans you need to send into a kit cutter. This is a little 49 inch Fokker D-VII designed by Rick Uravitch and sold through MAN plans service. I build a couple of them a long time ago, a bit on the heavy side but a fun little plane.
Anyway, these are plans for scratch builders or plans builders. When you buy them you also get a copy of the building article from when it was featured in MAN. The article is a bit of help, sometimes a lot of help and sometimes not.
The plans show the profile of the parts that are needed to cut, you can see in the photos the ribs and formers. Unless the kit cutter has these on file then they need a set of plans like this. I have had kits cut from Nick Z plans and the plans were like these showing what is needed. Things may have changed over the years so I'm not 100% sure how they do things these days but way back when the cutters couldn't cut from standard kit plans.
I could be very wrong about this because I haven't had one cut for me in a lot of years. I hand cut all my own kits these days. I just enjoy doing it the old way and get a lot of pleasure from it. These days I even cut my own spar wood and some of my balsa sticks.
I know, I'm strange but I like it!!!
Gene

WestCoastFlyer

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Gene, I don't think you're strange at all! As a matter of fact you do it the right way. If I had more time I'd love to scratch build an airplane, and I'd like to design that scratch built airplane, but I don't have the time. I built enough Guillows models as a kid to scratch build something that could fly better than those did :-)

So I can think about the fact that someday I can scratch build a model, hopefully my design, but in the meantime I might as well circulate dollars around for things like cutting parts.

Gray Beard

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How about me just sending you my address and you can toss some my way!! I'm running out of shop supplies and need a bunch of props and batteries.
I used to design my own and if I was any good on a puter I would be doing some cad work. That is just too much like work and there are so many nice plans already drawn and the prices are right.
I find the hardest part to plans building is sitting down and figuring out the different wood I will need from build to build. When I order wood I always buy a bunch of extra to keep on hand. I posted photos just a while back of my last build, I had almost everything I needed on hand so the plane was a free one. I may have a line on some wood from a guy that has gotten out of the hobby, he had a great supply of wood sitting around and doing nothing.
I'm thinking I could cut a couple of the CG Extra kits, I know a number of guys that want one after they see mine fly. I still enjoy building planes for other people and the planes always mean more to them when I give them to someone.