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  1. #1

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    Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    I'm flying an Esky Belt CP (450 size heli) that I'd done the direct to swash mod on and upgraded the electronics to stuff that actually works. It hovers pretty well on calm days but gets tossed around a lot by the wind like all 450's do. I seem to recall reading somewhere that angling the flybar paddles down by a degree or so will make the rotor turn into the wind, improving its ability to hover on a gusty day. Is that actually true or do I need to consider changing something else? For those who say to just get a bigger heli, I've already done that with the shiny T-Rex 600n in my garage. But I can fly this 450 at the park and want to get good with it before going out with the 600.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  2. #2

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    NOPE

    Jim
    HobbyTown USA

  3. #3

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    NOPE. Deal with the wind by flying the helicopter. They do not hover hands free. OR wait till a calmer day.

    Jim
    HobbyTown USA

  4. #4

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    I do deal with it by flying the helicopter, so no thanks to the rude reply. I'm not a 15 year old kid who doesn't want to learn any skills, but I am new to helis compared to planes. I know that setup can make a big difference in how the machine reacts to both wind and control input. I don't think it's going to hover hands off, but I'd like to make it as good as it can be mechanically, which gives me more flying days to work on my stick skills and lessens the workload on the pilots as much as possible. With planks we call it flight trimming, and at least with those vehicles the decisions we make can have dramatic effects on the flight performance.

    So are there any helpful people with suggestions on how to make an entry level 450 handle the wind a little better?
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  5. #5

    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?


    ORIGINAL: jester_s1]
    So are there any helpful people with suggestions on how to make an entry level 450 handle the wind a little better?
    Make it heavier maybe? I dunno as Im still pretty much a n00b myself (my 3rd year in). Or, you could do what I did....build a 500. Its night and day difference as far as flying in the wind, and the crash cost isnt that much more than the 450.

    If I knew then what I know now...Id of waited on buying a 450 till later. Id of started out on the mCPX and then went straight to a 500. Id say even 600, but crash cost for a 600 is considerably more than a 500.
    SpeedDemon
    ATVAlliance.Com

  6. #6

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    The extra weight certainly didn't help when I strapped on my basic aerial video rig, but then again I also strapped on significant wind drag to boot. I suppose I just need to try a few things to see what works.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  7. #7

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    I have been flying the 450 as my primary heli for about 3 years now. From my experience, it is a small and light helicopter. I personally just deal with the fact that because of it's weight and size, there are going to be limitations when it comes to the wind. I have never head of changing the paddle angle and I personally wouldn't screw with it. It is designed to be a neutral flight control and it is basically a mechanical gyro. You could go flybarless on it and the gyro stabilization may help a bit in windy conditions. I had fbl installed for a short time on my 450, but it went out on me and didn't get the chance to fly it in windy conditions.
    Trex 450 Pro / Trex 500 / Trex 600E
    microbeast Ikon Ikon

  8. #8
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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    This may sound rude to you given that you show signs of thin skin, but here it goes anyway.....

    You are asking an economy car to perform like a sports car. Some brands the smaller helicopters are obviously better than others as far as quality, rigidity, and comopnent fit. You might be fighting an uphill battle. I have zero experience with Esky, other than what I have read in the forums.

    The suggestion for heavier paddles is spot on. You can also add flybar weights, and keep the existing paddles. Adding just weight (camera rig) does nothing to help control the helicopter, it just adds to the pendulum effect, and if the head is already loose, you are just compounding the issue. I will not go into the "wind area" and how it increases when you add large stuff to the outside of the helicopter, you should have plenty of aerodinamic experience with your airplanes.

    I suggest that you wear a thicker skin, and resist the urge to backlash at the people that come here to help. I did not see any insults in the thread, but I bet that you will not see that person dropping by to provide advice to you anymore.

    Rafael
    Keep your eyes on the sky but your feet on the ground!
    Team Heliproz.com / AMA # 8109

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    ORIGINAL: Rafael23cc

    This may sound rude to you given that you show signs of thin skin, but here it goes anyway.....

    You are asking an economy car to perform like a sports car. Some brands the smaller helicopters are obviously better than others as far as quality, rigidity, and comopnent fit. You might be fighting an uphill battle. I have zero experience with Esky, other than what I have read in the forums.

    The suggestion for heavier paddles is spot on. You can also add flybar weights, and keep the existing paddles. Adding just weight (camera rig) does nothing to help control the helicopter, it just adds to the pendulum effect, and if the head is already loose, you are just compounding the issue. I will not go into the ''wind area'' and how it increases when you add large stuff to the outside of the helicopter, you should have plenty of aerodinamic experience with your airplanes.

    I suggest that you wear a thicker skin, and resist the urge to backlash at the people that come here to help. I did not see any insults in the thread, but I bet that you will not see that person dropping by to provide advice to you anymore.

    Rafael
    +1 re: adding heavier flybar paddles or flybar weight. Also using a longer flybar may also help.

  10. #10

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    Also using a longer flybar may also help.
    Making the flybar longer makes the cyclic quicker, not slower. You can add weights and all that stuff and it will slow down the cyclic. The problem still remains that it is a small helicopter and is quite light. So I personally don't agree with y'alls assumptions.
    Trex 450 Pro / Trex 500 / Trex 600E
    microbeast Ikon Ikon

  11. #11

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    Oh I definitely understand that I'm not going to get the kind of performance that I would out of a 600 class machine. I just want to get it as good as I can. I'll try some extra flybar weight and see what happens with it. I'm guessing a wheel collar on each end is a good place to start?

    As for being thin skinned, I'm really not. The post I reacted to essentially said that the solution is to fly it better. True enough, but I also have been in the hobby long enough to know that setup can have a big effect on how a machine handles. This thread was about setup, so I didn't need someone to ignore the question and dismiss me as some newb wanting what isn't possible. Most of my 3,000 posts here on RCU are in the beginner's plane forum, most of them helping newbies get started well. Many thanks to you guys who offered some information, and I'm sure I'll have other questions as I get into this more.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  12. #12
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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    ORIGINAL: jester_s1

    Oh I definitely understand that I'm not going to get the kind of performance that I would out of a 600 class machine.
    I never said 600 machine. Within the same size (450) there is a great variation between brands.

    I just want to get it as good as I can. I'll try some extra flybar weight and see what happens with it. I'm guessing a wheel collar on each end is a good place to start?
    I guess that you could start with a wheel collar (assuming you have plenty of those on hand), but experience tells me you are going to need a lot more weight than just a wheel collar. You might end up with too many. A proper flybar weight might be the ticket. The weight needs to be concentrated as far as possible from the main shaft. If you add a lot of wheel collars, the weight is going to be distributed instead of concentrated.

    As for the thin skin, I'm not taking sides, just advising you to ignore some posts and take with a grain of salt the others. There are a lot of keyboard experts.

    Rafael
    Keep your eyes on the sky but your feet on the ground!
    Team Heliproz.com / AMA # 8109

  13. #13

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    I got ya. I'd have to say that the stock Esky is bottom of the heap in terms of quality out of the box. I never had a flight that lasted more than 10 seconds before I did some upgrading. The ESC's are prone to failure (sometimes spectacularly), the servos are weak and inaccurate, and the bellcrank setup for swash control has loads of slop in it. The gyro is also the cheapest one they could possibly get to go in there. That said, I had very little in this one used so I moved the servos to hook them up direct (DTS mod) and upgraded to 17 oz in digitals (Solar brand which I'm pretty impressed with), I put a decent HH gyro on and had had to replace the ESC already. The machine is predictable and consistent, so I can at least fly it. I give it a shot of silicone lube once in a while to keep everything moving smoothly and do a thorough pre-flight before every outing. I'd still like to put a really fast tail servo in to make it hold better, but the heli is serving its purpose as it sits to get me in the air and let me work on some flight skills at the park.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  14. #14

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?


    ORIGINAL: Rafael23cc

    This may sound rude to you given that you show signs of thin skin, but here it goes anyway.....

    You are asking an economy car to perform like a sports car. Some brands the smaller helicopters are obviously better than others as far as quality, rigidity, and comopnent fit. You might be fighting an uphill battle. I have zero experience with Esky, other than what I have read in the forums.

    The suggestion for heavier paddles is spot on. You can also add flybar weights, and keep the existing paddles. Adding just weight (camera rig) does nothing to help control the helicopter, it just adds to the pendulum effect, and if the head is already loose, you are just compounding the issue. I will not go into the "wind area" and how it increases when you add large stuff to the outside of the helicopter, you should have plenty of aerodinamic experience with your airplanes.

    I suggest that you wear a thicker skin, and resist the urge to backlash at the people that come here to help. I did not see any insults in the thread, but I bet that you will not see that person dropping by to provide advice to you anymore.

    Rafael
    I would add
    if he gets the fly-bar too heavy it will cause a delay in control response and lessen responce
    double up on the fly-bar weights and move the extra ones in close to start with then move them out to trade response for
    stability


  15. #15

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    A single wheel collar on each end did improve stability just enough to give me the feel I wanted. So for other guys dealing with this it's a worthwhile mod to do. Unfortunately, the heli had a blade holder failure and threw a blade the other day and beat itself to death on the way to the ground. There was more stuff broken than not, so I'm Ebay'ing the parts and will get something better. I'm scanning the classifieds for a good used TRex 450, but may get a new Tarot clone for about the same price. From what I'm told, the Tarots are the best of the clones, with Copter X being next in line at a substantially reduced price. I'm done messing with junky stuff and want a bird that I can set up properly and trust it to work right long term. I'll listen to any and all suggestions from you guys on what to get if you're so inclined to offer. In other news, I traded a cheap pistol (did the proper background check with a dealer) for a Trex 600 nitro. I am absolutely amazed at how much easier the big heli is to fly than the cheap 450 was.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  16. #16

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    ORIGINAL: Solman

    Also using a longer flybar may also help.
    Making the flybar longer makes the cyclic quicker, not slower. You can add weights and all that stuff and it will slow down the cyclic. The problem still remains that it is a small helicopter and is quite light. *So I personally don't agree with y'alls assumptions.
    Yes, using a longer flybar will indeed increase cyclic response. But the flybar is also a stabiliser bar that acts like a gyro when you are NOT giving it commands. Making it longer will give a longer moment arm for the stabilization (gyro) function to act. This was proven and explained by Curtis Youngblood (a world champion) many times at different events I attended. In fact you could tune your system to different wind conditions to optimize the stability by changing this length. If too short, the wind would make it drift downwind, too long and it would overcorrect and cause the heli to drift the other way.

  17. #17

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    I'd suggest looking into a 500 rather than another 450. 500s are still pretty affordable and the performance/stability improvement is HUGE. The 450 to 500 jump is probably the most drastic performance improvement for the smallest increase in cost.

    Also look into flybarless, they handle the wind MUCH better.

  18. #18

    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    The only tradeoff I can see going FBL vs. FB is the setup.  While I dont own a FBL (unless you count the mcpx...but its already setup out of the box)...Ive done some reading on it.  And I think the learning curve to setting it up is more steep than regular gyro.  Thats just me.

    I do however agree 1000% on going to a 500.  Bigger, slower, flies smoother for the most part.  And best of all...not all that more expensive to fix a crash comparing to the 450.

    SpeedDemon
    ATVAlliance.Com

  19. #19

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    The only rub with that is I like being able to use the same batteries for everything including my park flyer planes. They both use a 3s 2200, and I have just bought a decent supply of them. Going to a 500 would require buying a set of batteries just for it, and I don't want to have to keep up with two different kinds. I have my 600n for when I go to the club field, so a new (or new to me anyway) 450 fills the niche of the simple park flyer that I want it to be. If I have to be selective about which days I fly it because of the wind, that'll be ok. I'll work the setup to be as good as it can be, and I'll have a great time with it.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  20. #20

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?


    ORIGINAL: jester_s1

    A single wheel collar on each end did improve stability just enough to give me the feel I wanted. So for other guys dealing with this it's a worthwhile mod to do. Unfortunately, the heli had a blade holder failure and threw a blade the other day and beat itself to death on the way to the ground. There was more stuff broken than not, so I'm Ebay'ing the parts and will get something better. I'm scanning the classifieds for a good used TRex 450, but may get a new Tarot clone for about the same price. From what I'm told, the Tarots are the best of the clones, with Copter X being next in line at a substantially reduced price. I'm done messing with junky stuff and want a bird that I can set up properly and trust it to work right long term. I'll listen to any and all suggestions from you guys on what to get if you're so inclined to offer. In other news, I traded a cheap pistol (did the proper background check with a dealer) for a Trex 600 nitro. I am absolutely amazed at how much easier the big heli is to fly than the cheap 450 was.
    you may find it cheaper to get a bare bones air frame and move you electronics over to it or even a kit
    http://mikeysrc.com has videos on building a rchelicopter from opening the box to setting blade tracking

    not to be unkind
    but the loss of the blade grip was most likely your falt for not checking the screws going in to the fethering shaft

  21. #21

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    If that screw had come loose you'd be right most definitely. But in this case the blade ripped itself right out of the grip, breaking the tip that the screw goes through completely off. No more cheap helis for me and no more plastic blade grips!
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  22. #22

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    here is what I'm talking about

    http://www.myrcmart.com/rcx-450-spor...ic-p-3713.html

    $45.00 + shipping
    metal main and tail rotors carbon fiber frame for what you want this one would be great and at an unbeatable price
    this place also has fiber glass blades rough finish the pair I got were perfectly balanced out of the box $4.00

    it's way to easy to assume human error when talking on this subject sorry

  23. #23

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    I hadn't seen that one, but the price is definitely right. I was looking at the Copter X machines the other day and they are pretty comparable in price. I suppose the RCX machines are Align clones too?
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  24. #24

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?


    ORIGINAL: jester_s1

    I hadn't seen that one, but the price is definitely right. I was looking at the Copter X machines the other day and they are pretty comparable in price. I suppose the RCX machines are Align clones too?
    this one is not all RCX are
    it's just an air frame
    click the link

    NO servos , ESC , motor , gyro , receiver blades or canopy
    but I would bet the servos , ESC , motor , gyro and receiver survived the crash

    NOTE
    the videos are V2 helicopter the air frame is V3
    V2 is NOT a trex clone
    V3 IS a trex clone

  25. #25

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    RE: Will changing paddle angle affect windy day performance?

    Yes, all of the electronics are fine, as is the head minus the flybar and feathering shaft. I'm just not inclined to spend the $40 on parts and 3-4 hours to rebuild the thing when I know it will still be as junky a helicopter as it was before. And I'm certainly not inclined to spend $100 upgrading it into something better when I can buy an all around better airframe with parts I can get locally for the same money or less. I'll be getting a Trex clone simply because parts are everywhere for them.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!


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