Stickbuilder

Paul,

Where do you fly? Looks like we're neighbors.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

abufletcher

I agree as well. But it does get a little dodgy towards the border.

dragoonpvw

My Feedback: (7)

Go out to the field tomorrow if the weathers good ( The Ocala Flying Model Club ) and Pete and I will both be there. I am going to try to maiden the big p-51 in my gallery and Pete is going to maiden a Hangar 9 jug. We will probably fly until about noon. I need to get the p-51 maidened for T/G and get some practice in for an airshow in December.
Good Luck
Paul

Stickbuilder

That's where I'm a member as well. I doubt if I'll be able to get away tomorrow though.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

p-40s have allison liquid cooled v-12's not P&W radials

Stickbuilder

Flak

My Feedback: (1)

TT,
I wondered if anyone would catch that. This is exactly why I am a builder and not an ARF'er. Good Catch. OK, back to sanding the wing on my 1/5th Scale P-51B.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Amen. I think somebody ought to take Stick's copy of Top Gun rules and torch them. I have found nothing in the header for the Scale Forum that mentions you have to build it for it to be a scale plane. There's a lot of variation in scale, from the 50-50 rule (it looks great from 50 feet at 50 mph) all the way to each and every rivet in precisely the correct spot, and the fake pilot's moustache properly trimmed.

I love scale, consider myself a good builder. But then, there as many types of builder as there are types or degrees of scale. Someone who can frame up a WWI plane the way the prototype was built may not be able to (or care) about laying a fiberglass fuse for an F-4 Phantom. I appreciate, and applaude either builder for his ability and am interested in learning how each did it. I feel this forum should be a reference site for "this is what I have, and this is what I did to make it that way", whether it was a cheesy ARF that gets re-covered with 3 hours of work and a roll of Solartex and only marginally looks better, or whether it's next year's double whammy Top Gun and Scale Master winner that's been four years in the works by someone who didn't have anything else to do the whole time.

Hey Flak-- you just meant to say P-47, didn't you

scalebirdman

My Feedback: (6)

Stick is a little stickey. He forgot to mention a working scale model of the same powerplant the prototype flew with. How else are you going to swing a scale propeller????

Stickbuilder

You guys can't expect me to remember everything canya?

If you will bear with me for a minute, the Original question was: Do ARF'sBelong in the scale forum?

If you enter a scale contest (not Sport Scale) (not sorta-scale either) You must sign a Builder of the Model form. You can't do this with an ARF or a Stick Built plane that you bought from someone else. That alone is/was my thinking, and the reason for my post. I'm not completely anti-ARF. I do, however, think that you guys who have never given building a try, are missing out on some of the greatest aspects of this hobby. We are not all old geezers that never fly these birds. I fly the stink out of mine. If I don't trust it, I don't build it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

schwatd

My belief is that there are several facets to 'scale', not just the plane and it's origination. A pilots flying needs to also be mentioned. First let me sayI love Mac's B-29 & Bell X-1, but during his show when does an inverted pass and repeated tailslides, those aren't scale manuvers for a beautiful scale B-29. Now if a kid saves up his money and buys, lets say a nice ARF Cessna 172, does a nice job finishing the airplane and flies it true to the real aircraft's flight parameters who among us is to say that's not scale? I'm not. I think you have to let each person buy what they can afford and then see what they can accomplish with the aircraft as a whole. Maybe if we embrace the ARFs we can help some of those younger modellers pick p the talents required to build stick kits and their benefits. Driving a wedge between modellers just because of their choice of kit seems like a sure way to damage our hobby. Well that's my 2 cents worth.

Troy

BOLTMAN

My Feedback: (1)

Guys

The forum title is "RC SCALE AIRCRAFT".

There is no mention or innuendo that this means "Competition Only".

If this thread is not for competition only, how can there be a builder of the model rule???????

Fact is that there are more than a couple of ARF's around that put kits like PICA, Top Flite and others to shame in the accuracy stakes.

I don't think we need to be divided any more than we do to ourselves already.

Anyone who is not into ARFs need not read any thread about them.

Only tonight at our club meeting I was telling one of our members about the Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel ARF, one of his favourite aircraft. He asked the question - Is it covered in "shiney film" or authentic fabric? He was disappointed when the answer came back as "shiney film".

I had to remind him that when I taxi back from a flight on my "shiney film" covered Hanger 9 large scale P-47 ARF, I do not walk back cursing to myself - " Damn that's shiney!!! Damn that's shiney!!! Damn that's shiney!!! Damn that's shiney!!! Damn that's shiney!!! "

No!!! I walk back with a big grin on my face because I have just had FUN!!!

Part of the reason this model is so much FUN to fly is because of it's "shiney film" the wingloading is so low it is a dream to fly.

I do not want to show this model, I do not want to compete with this model, I do not need to brag about building this model..........

I just want to have FUN & ENJOY myself flying this model, that to me looks heaps better in the air than some-ones "Who-flipped-out-3D-Whats-it" which is being flown in some crazy way that makes a mockery of all theories of flight.

Now isn't FUN & ENJOYMENT what a hobby is all about???

Cheers

cyclops2

The original question---------Do ARF's belong in the SCALE FORUM.

Only answer is. If the plane was ever built or flown --FULL SIZED----- then it belongs in THE FORUM.

How scale any kit OR scratch built is , will always be argued.

Smith is better than---
Ziroli is better than---

Yakagumi is better than Smith or Ziroli on a Japanese Kate.

Get real.

Flak

My Feedback: (1)

No one is ever going to win this argument. Admiral Yamamoto knew what a P-38 Lightning looked like in the last minute and a half of his life!

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

He probably knew, but never had as close-up a look as in in those last few seconds

Yak18

My Feedback: (11)

Knew a man once who thought people who built kits were lazy slackers! He only built from plans that HE drew on butcher paper! So all you ARF haters...what say you to that?

Even a kit is prefabricated and all laid out like a paint by number picture. Unless you draw your own plans and go from there....who are you to criticize ARFs?

Yak

Stickbuilder

Yak,

Would it help if I grew my own Balsa Tree? Or maybe made my own hobby knife, or brewed up my own glue? Give it a rest, and grow a sense of humor about this. None of the Builders are actually serious about this. We just enjoy watching you ARFER's squirm, and twist in the wind every now and then. It's a freakin' hobby, It ain't life. Hell, when we build one, it becomes an ARF, and then an RTF, then an ABF (already been flown) Sometimes it even becomes an ARC (already been crashed)

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Yak18

My Feedback: (11)

You're one of those lazy kit builders aren't you?

scalebirdman

My Feedback: (6)

Actually Bill, you can. I flew a GP Yak 54 in the scalemasters Championships this past October in the Open class. However, since I had stripped the stock covering off, and recovered it in a prototypical scheme (I also replaced the stock aluminum gear with scale scratch built carbon fiber gear) it would have been legal (though not competitive) in Expert class.

I also have a TF GS P-51 that the original owner purchased as an ARF. He stripped the monokote off, converted it to a B model, and glassed and flite metaled. He then decided to modify the nose to be like the kit with a lower cowl instead of the arf full fiberglass cowl. Part way through this rebuild he lost interest and sold the plane to me. I finished the nose conversion, or rather modified it to accept a more scale 5 1/2" spinner and re-metaled the fuse from aft of the canopy forward. I also stripped the original markings and added new ones. I could ligitimately, by scalemasters rules, sign the builder of the model decleration and compete in Expert class.

I fly arfs, kit built, plans built, and scratch built scale planes (and building off someone else's plans is NOT scratch building IMHO) They are what they are, and I appreciate the challenges each has to offer. I enjoy seeing a plane that closely resembles a real plane in action. I know a number of what I would call master builders (not being one myself) and to a man they have never looked down their noses at arfs. They understand that while not their cup of tea, the do have a place in the hobby, and as long as the subject is "scale" and the arf is of a "scale" subject, it is jermain to the forum.

Boomerang1

Um, actually, I do draw my own plans & go from there. Why? Because I like to build models that way and some of the models I wish to build are not available as plans, kits or ARF's. So I guess (according to Yak 18) I'm qualified to criticise ARF's. But why bother? If I want to scratch build (really scratch build, kits & plans are for lazy slackers [sm=lol.gif]) that's fine. If someone else wants to fly ARF's that's fine to. I have had ARF models, some good, some crap but for me they all lack one thing - the warm fuzzy feeling of creating a flying scale model from just an idea. - John.

Stickbuilder

Like I said, You guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously. It's a hobby, it is not life. If you want to build from scratch, plans, kit, ARC, ARF, RTF, or whatever, just enjoy it. The only thing that really bugs me is when someone trys to pass off work that he did not do as his. What does that have to do with scale? Nothing. It can happen with a sport plane as well. As I said, I am basically a Scale builder Plans mainly, but the occasional kit, and a few complete scratch builds. I am in the process of aquiring an ARF (somewhere in the 40% range) It will be something to fly. It won't be something to enter into competition. Yes, I know that the rules have been bent in scale competitions until they no longer look like the original intention. To what purpose? Is it just to keep the competition going, or is it to allow more diverse types of modeller to join? I really don't know the answer to that one. I suppose that would depend upon whom you asked. I still think that the BOM rule is/was a good one. It kind of separated the sheep from the goats.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Yak18

My Feedback: (11)

I suppose it is possible to pass off an ARF as your own. I had a GP Shoestring sitting on the flight line shortly after they were internationally advertised in every R/C magazine. Several old timers came up to me and said wow that's pretty! Who's kit is that?
I said it's an ARF. Really? they said. I did not say I built it because I'm not a liar...

I agree that ARFs don't belong in competition. A competion is to measure skill, not buying power. But if it's a scale model, it belongs in the scale model forum for discussion purposes.

Yak

GrantK

My Feedback: (15)

If you don't enjoy building then don't build. I enjoy building so I will continue to build. The more crudy ARFs out there the more the builders will standout. I havn't seen anyone at our field standing around admiring any of the H9s but when I brought a kit build Fun 51 (with the crudyest monokoting job I've ever done) it drew a croud, who new. I'm looking forward to see what happens when I finish my TF P-39. Maby it will inspire someone else to start building.

scalebirdman

My Feedback: (6)

Stick, I'm really not trying to rag on you. As you say I have my pet peeves too, like when someone says the "scratch built a Ziroli ..."

Yak, Scale competitions measure 2 skills: Crafting and flying. The "lower" classes that allow ARF models are/were intended to introduce new blood into the arena, with the hopes that the contestant would progress to the "higher" classes. Why do you not have the same attitude toward team scale as ARF's?? I mean what is the difference between flying top end ARF, say 3 see bees' or the like, and flyinig a plane your buddy built?

abufletcher

Good point. Who here wouldn't snap up a Top Gun quality model second-hand if it were offered at the right price.

But then I don't imagine I'd be posting many photos of it in the Scale Forum. []