Combatpigg's 1903 wright flyer
10-30-2015, 04:47 PM
#151
I'll do some runs tomorrow to see.
I've stained the 3 balsa pillars that hold the power plant and will smear some Minwax over that later.
The bamboo skewers come with a waxy feel and they won't absorb much. The undercarriage will get a couple coats of Minwax.
I think this one should be able to complete a slight downwind turn and do a complete lap...!
Any bets on being able to do a loop...?
I've stained the 3 balsa pillars that hold the power plant and will smear some Minwax over that later.
The bamboo skewers come with a waxy feel and they won't absorb much. The undercarriage will get a couple coats of Minwax.
I think this one should be able to complete a slight downwind turn and do a complete lap...!
Any bets on being able to do a loop...?
10-31-2015, 05:36 PM
#153
Today's effort to run this thing was a struggle.
I baselined the engine as a formality with a 5 x 3 and couldn't get close to 18,000. The prop driver was cockeyed and my efforts to press it on straight kept failing. This is the engine that was fitted with a front BB.
I went back and forth with different prop drivers and played with different heads, P/L sets...everything I could throw at it and the power just wasn't there.
I mixed a fresh batch of 25% nitro, 25% oil to see if that would help and it got the prop turning 17,400.
The first attempt to turn the new twin prop powerplant ended with a 2 second shaft run when the nylon engine pulley melted. The engine tightened up, so everything had to stop to look into that. After checking the dismantled engine, the front bearing looked good and the thrust washer was rough so I smoothed it out, threw it back together and got 5000 on the 6 x 4.5 props with the square cut tips.
It did 5500 with the same props with rounded tips. I didn't get a chance to compare the thrust.
The engine runs much cooler now with the easier turning prop drivers and crankshaft bearing.
I can lean the needle for more rpm at the engine, but the resulting rpm increase at the props is less than 1/3 of engine speed so it doesn't make sense to meltdown the engine....yet. The balloon tank works great..a nitrile glove finger. To prime the line, just give it a gentle squeeze.
I baselined the engine as a formality with a 5 x 3 and couldn't get close to 18,000. The prop driver was cockeyed and my efforts to press it on straight kept failing. This is the engine that was fitted with a front BB.
I went back and forth with different prop drivers and played with different heads, P/L sets...everything I could throw at it and the power just wasn't there.
I mixed a fresh batch of 25% nitro, 25% oil to see if that would help and it got the prop turning 17,400.
The first attempt to turn the new twin prop powerplant ended with a 2 second shaft run when the nylon engine pulley melted. The engine tightened up, so everything had to stop to look into that. After checking the dismantled engine, the front bearing looked good and the thrust washer was rough so I smoothed it out, threw it back together and got 5000 on the 6 x 4.5 props with the square cut tips.
It did 5500 with the same props with rounded tips. I didn't get a chance to compare the thrust.
The engine runs much cooler now with the easier turning prop drivers and crankshaft bearing.
I can lean the needle for more rpm at the engine, but the resulting rpm increase at the props is less than 1/3 of engine speed so it doesn't make sense to meltdown the engine....yet. The balloon tank works great..a nitrile glove finger. To prime the line, just give it a gentle squeeze.
10-31-2015, 06:29 PM
#154
I see the rear left prop is on backwards was this corrected prior to seeing a 500 rpm gain?
The brown minwax slathering should help keep the oil weight down. At 5.5K / 23.44 mph
Static thrust comes out low with my calc program not designed for slow fly props.
If unloaded to say 6.4k / 33.33 mph not bad at all. So test flight Sunday?
The brown minwax slathering should help keep the oil weight down. At 5.5K / 23.44 mph
Static thrust comes out low with my calc program not designed for slow fly props.
If unloaded to say 6.4k / 33.33 mph not bad at all. So test flight Sunday?
10-31-2015, 07:53 PM
#155
No, I didn't notice the backwards prop until I saw the photo.
What I haven't tried are Nelson plugs, but I haven't seen my head adapters anywhere.
A Norvel head would be just as good and I don't have any fresh ones.
I tried a TD P/L and although it ran, it's not as good as the Product Engine P/L.
I ran one of the 6 x 4.5 [blunt tip] props straight off the engine and it did 8000 without straining the engine too much. This would be a nice level of power for an antique design....without resorting to running that nasty diesel.
If there are any windows of opportunity I'll give this thing a toss tomorrow.
I hit all the bare wood yesterday with some very old clear "fuel proofer" dope and used some thinned 30 minute epoxy on just the wood in the engine area..smeared as thinly as possible.
What I haven't tried are Nelson plugs, but I haven't seen my head adapters anywhere.
A Norvel head would be just as good and I don't have any fresh ones.
I tried a TD P/L and although it ran, it's not as good as the Product Engine P/L.
I ran one of the 6 x 4.5 [blunt tip] props straight off the engine and it did 8000 without straining the engine too much. This would be a nice level of power for an antique design....without resorting to running that nasty diesel.
If there are any windows of opportunity I'll give this thing a toss tomorrow.
I hit all the bare wood yesterday with some very old clear "fuel proofer" dope and used some thinned 30 minute epoxy on just the wood in the engine area..smeared as thinly as possible.
Last edited by combatpigg; 10-31-2015 at 07:59 PM.
10-31-2015, 08:24 PM
#156
The orange GWS 6x5 highly highly recommend thinner airfoil and camber, much lighter with finished tips will for sure give more thrust and speed. If it does fly and looks like you have a keeper order some and der plane will champion on. Nelson head would be a plus if your able to find, perhaps on one of your planes somewhere. 35% nitro with the nelson plug might see an extra 350ish rpm at
the props. And the crowd chants vid vid videroOoo...
the props. And the crowd chants vid vid videroOoo...
10-31-2015, 09:31 PM
#157
Yessiree..I've got those 6050s written down.
What's fun about this is how marginal everything is.
The most flimsy structure I could build, the weakest engine family, a funky design that looks like a flying rattan lounge chair from Gilligan's Island.
The worst thing I can do is over control it, even just briefly. Gotta give it a chance to get up up and away with level wings and try to conserve speed.
It would be nice to have the very best .049 specimen possible, since this engine is OK but only about 90% as powerful as a few Product Engines I've had in the past.
gotta go looking for that Nelson head. I use pliers on this stuff to lock them down but it chews them up too, so the last I remember seeing it my head adapter looks like something that belongs in the garbage can.
What's fun about this is how marginal everything is.
The most flimsy structure I could build, the weakest engine family, a funky design that looks like a flying rattan lounge chair from Gilligan's Island.
The worst thing I can do is over control it, even just briefly. Gotta give it a chance to get up up and away with level wings and try to conserve speed.
It would be nice to have the very best .049 specimen possible, since this engine is OK but only about 90% as powerful as a few Product Engines I've had in the past.
gotta go looking for that Nelson head. I use pliers on this stuff to lock them down but it chews them up too, so the last I remember seeing it my head adapter looks like something that belongs in the garbage can.
10-31-2015, 09:46 PM
#158
Yes making it happen against all odds with a reed engine is all part of the fun. I do recall seeing the chewed up sides of a nelson head in a yellow 1/2A SWR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gce1n_gtK7U
Perhaps you will be the first to fly laps with a Cox engine belt driven RC Right Flyer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gce1n_gtK7U
Perhaps you will be the first to fly laps with a Cox engine belt driven RC Right Flyer!
Last edited by Pond Skipper; 10-31-2015 at 10:19 PM.
11-01-2015, 03:10 PM
#159
There was no joy in Mudville today.
Too much wind today for the measly amount of thrust.
The plane needs a little bit of repair to the chassis, nothing serious.
It's time to make a test stand to take the guesswork out of setting up the powerplant.
That old timer who witnessed the Wright Bros. sure saw his fair share of progress made through the years..!
Too much wind today for the measly amount of thrust.
The plane needs a little bit of repair to the chassis, nothing serious.
It's time to make a test stand to take the guesswork out of setting up the powerplant.
That old timer who witnessed the Wright Bros. sure saw his fair share of progress made through the years..!
11-01-2015, 06:10 PM
#160
It was breezy on my end too but was able to fly we had few spots of standing water from Sat early morning rain but good enough to fly by Sunday. Yea I would imagine any short of calm would be risky early morning when there is the least amount of wind. I flew around 2:40pm. Had I been out there around 10am could have had near calm.
Rare treat to have an eye witness account of early flight, thought you might get a kick out of it.
Rare treat to have an eye witness account of early flight, thought you might get a kick out of it.
11-02-2015, 05:30 PM
#161
This was my contribution to 1/2A Mankind today...11 seconds of video after a couple hours worth of frustration, newly invented swear words and backache.
2 beers later, all is forgotten. https://youtu.be/4CIpDJCBcpI The scale shows about 12 ozs [net] weight and the "hand test" behind the props tells me that there is enough thrust to fly this thing with the first set of 6 x 4.5 props that I cut down with square tips.
The power increase was from finding a TD head that wasn't burned out to try.
2 beers later, all is forgotten. https://youtu.be/4CIpDJCBcpI The scale shows about 12 ozs [net] weight and the "hand test" behind the props tells me that there is enough thrust to fly this thing with the first set of 6 x 4.5 props that I cut down with square tips.
The power increase was from finding a TD head that wasn't burned out to try.
11-03-2015, 01:09 PM
#165
https://youtu.be/FYxeqabp6xM
Not enough control response either...!
The model leaves with a promising amount of speed but the 4.5 pitch must be maxxed out before the plane starts flying fast enough for the controls to work.
I had to cut this video short, since I don't know how to edit the audio.
I've got the 6 pitch props on order, so by the time they arrive the undercarriage will be rebuilt, I'll add ailerons to the upper wing and make the elevator[s] larger.
The original "rubbers" got too slack to stay on track and switching to fresh ones really puts a load on the engine. This tells me that yesterday's powerful run was helped by the belts being worn out just enough to stay on the pulleys but not fly off.
The model leaves with a promising amount of speed but the 4.5 pitch must be maxxed out before the plane starts flying fast enough for the controls to work.
I had to cut this video short, since I don't know how to edit the audio.
I've got the 6 pitch props on order, so by the time they arrive the undercarriage will be rebuilt, I'll add ailerons to the upper wing and make the elevator[s] larger.
The original "rubbers" got too slack to stay on track and switching to fresh ones really puts a load on the engine. This tells me that yesterday's powerful run was helped by the belts being worn out just enough to stay on the pulleys but not fly off.
Last edited by combatpigg; 11-03-2015 at 01:13 PM.
11-03-2015, 05:10 PM
#166
What is the dia. of the O rings? I use 3mm to start boats with. They hold there dimensions but then they are only stretched for a short while then in rest mode. Perhaps if you leave the originals off until its time to fly should give them time to recover.
Twin props causing it to torque off to the left you should start with a hair bit of right trims. Perhaps toss with the left wing up some. Slightly roughen up the surfaces in the wheels for grip. Its jumping out of the aluminum or the nylon?
Engine was static at 16,472 rpm
Unloaded to 18,814 rpm.
Twin props causing it to torque off to the left you should start with a hair bit of right trims. Perhaps toss with the left wing up some. Slightly roughen up the surfaces in the wheels for grip. Its jumping out of the aluminum or the nylon?
Engine was static at 16,472 rpm
Unloaded to 18,814 rpm.
Last edited by Pond Skipper; 11-03-2015 at 05:23 PM.
11-03-2015, 05:28 PM
#167
The belts lost tension from what I think was a fair amount of wear and tear. You can see black dust after each running session.
The belts are 3/32" and the pulley grooves are about 1/8".
The engine gets smoking hot just from the electric starting process with new rubber.
I'm holding out hope that the 6 pitch props will get the plane up to flying speed sooner after it leaves the hand.
This project still ranks below learning how to fly C/L Combat in terms of repeated failures.
If the new props don't do the trick I might just mount a .074 back there with a direct drive prop to get the plane flying, trimmed, airworthy, etc. This would save wear and tear on the .049 power plant until the plane is ready.
The belts are 3/32" and the pulley grooves are about 1/8".
The engine gets smoking hot just from the electric starting process with new rubber.
I'm holding out hope that the 6 pitch props will get the plane up to flying speed sooner after it leaves the hand.
This project still ranks below learning how to fly C/L Combat in terms of repeated failures.
If the new props don't do the trick I might just mount a .074 back there with a direct drive prop to get the plane flying, trimmed, airworthy, etc. This would save wear and tear on the .049 power plant until the plane is ready.
11-03-2015, 06:43 PM
#168
ratio / 3.5 : 1"
Engine was static at 16,472 rpm / 4,706.3 rpm
Unloaded to 18,814 rpm / 5,375.43 rpm / 22.91 mph
With the new belts and since all testing is done if you
just run it in the air things should stay cooler and last
much longer this time. The nylon wheels should be
giving things a bit less wear. Bearings always a big
plus.
Engine was static at 16,472 rpm / 4,706.3 rpm
Unloaded to 18,814 rpm / 5,375.43 rpm / 22.91 mph
With the new belts and since all testing is done if you
just run it in the air things should stay cooler and last
much longer this time. The nylon wheels should be
giving things a bit less wear. Bearings always a big
plus.
Last edited by Pond Skipper; 11-03-2015 at 10:13 PM.
11-03-2015, 07:21 PM
#169
I had to toss out the 2.5 ratio drive delrin pulley because it was melting. I'm back to using the 3.5 aluminum pulley.
The 5900 you saw yesterday was @ 3.5 ratio [so the engine was cranking pretty good].
I'd say the props were turning slower today than yesterday because of the stiffer belts and the need to run the engine richer.
My general impression was the plane got up to about 15 mph today.
Another pair of ailerons and larger elevator ought to help the slow speed control response.
Today was just about perfect, too. Cool temp with no wind. Should have been flying ...!
The 5900 you saw yesterday was @ 3.5 ratio [so the engine was cranking pretty good].
I'd say the props were turning slower today than yesterday because of the stiffer belts and the need to run the engine richer.
My general impression was the plane got up to about 15 mph today.
Another pair of ailerons and larger elevator ought to help the slow speed control response.
Today was just about perfect, too. Cool temp with no wind. Should have been flying ...!
11-04-2015, 06:49 AM
#171
That's a far cry from 5900 and the resulting thrust you get at 5900.
The "Dyno Run" obliterated what was left of the old TD plug, even though the engine appeared to be plenty rich.
That was my signal to lower the compression by a couple of shims.
The "Dyno Run" obliterated what was left of the old TD plug, even though the engine appeared to be plenty rich.
That was my signal to lower the compression by a couple of shims.
11-04-2015, 05:58 PM
#172
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Hi CP,
Wonderful project ! Love the engine/ twin prop sounds !
I have a spray can for loose/old automotive belts. If one is squeeling/slipping, I spray it on and it works until the mechanics replace the belts. (It is so old, the label is off, so I don't know what it is...)
I was thinking if you could somehow make the belts 'tacky', you could run them with less tension, therefore less drag on the system....
Thanks for sharing the project CP.
Cheers,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
Wonderful project ! Love the engine/ twin prop sounds !
I have a spray can for loose/old automotive belts. If one is squeeling/slipping, I spray it on and it works until the mechanics replace the belts. (It is so old, the label is off, so I don't know what it is...)
I was thinking if you could somehow make the belts 'tacky', you could run them with less tension, therefore less drag on the system....
Thanks for sharing the project CP.
Cheers,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
11-04-2015, 06:10 PM
#173
Hi there Dave..!
While watching the belts, they just want to form a circle the faster they go...instead of the more oblong path they are supposed to follow.
There are also slight imperfections in the machine work, the mounting of the major components...it's actually a miracle that this thing can hold together at 5000 to 6000.
If everything about the plane is set as perfect as can be, I think there is enough power [on a good day] to make it fly.
While watching the belts, they just want to form a circle the faster they go...instead of the more oblong path they are supposed to follow.
There are also slight imperfections in the machine work, the mounting of the major components...it's actually a miracle that this thing can hold together at 5000 to 6000.
If everything about the plane is set as perfect as can be, I think there is enough power [on a good day] to make it fly.
11-04-2015, 08:34 PM
#174
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Yes of course..you are the only other 1/2 A flyer I've met in quite a long time.
You should chime in here with your projects from time to time...!
Her inventory continues to steadily shrink until she closes her doors for the last time.
I think the last items to go will be those $50 sheets of 1/64" plywood...?
You should chime in here with your projects from time to time...!
Her inventory continues to steadily shrink until she closes her doors for the last time.
I think the last items to go will be those $50 sheets of 1/64" plywood...?
Ill put up a build of my 8" span biplane at some point. Started it last week out of boredom.
I need to to pop back in there tomorrow or Friday and get some more hardware before she's gone. That ply is outrageously expensive. I had to get a sheet earlier this year for my Teedee powered ducted fan. But that project is stalled.
Loved the vids of the flyer you posted, looks like it's nearly complete. Gotta love one off projects like yours. I assume you're using an electric starter to get the engine running, did you pick up a 1/2a one or using a standard sized one?
you mentioned using a .074. If you want to try I have a .09 medallion I can let you borrow for that purpose. Head is modified to take standard plugs.
Last edited by MiZer1981; 11-04-2015 at 08:36 PM.
11-04-2015, 11:00 PM
#175
Thanks for the offer of the .09...!
I'm using a standard starter for this, it would smoke the Hornet starter.
Are you talking about the Fan Trainer plane [your stalled project..?]
I saw one fly many years ago and it was a decent performing plane. The biggest hurdle was reaching in to get the engine started. The owner / builder could just barely flick the prop / fan well enough to get it to fire up if everything else was perfect.
I'm using a standard starter for this, it would smoke the Hornet starter.
Are you talking about the Fan Trainer plane [your stalled project..?]
I saw one fly many years ago and it was a decent performing plane. The biggest hurdle was reaching in to get the engine started. The owner / builder could just barely flick the prop / fan well enough to get it to fire up if everything else was perfect.