A few questions
03-20-2004, 01:21 AM
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A few questions
Hey all: Newbie seeking some advice. I'm thinking of scratch-building a 1/2a plane capable of good aerobatics. I was wondering if anyone would care to comment on some of my questions:
1. How heavy can a model be and still get unlimited vertical from a Norvel 061?
2. What ballpark wing area should I shoot for with the 061?
3. Any basic rules as to how much servo I need for a certain size plane? I have some CS-10s (7oz/in); what is the largest plane or biggest engine you would venture to use these with?
4. You guys must use fairly standard sizes for 1/2a spars, rib thickness, etc. Any suggestions of starting points?
5. Finally, I'm really considering a flying wing. It seems logical to me that a flying wing would be the most versatile kind of model since the entire surface is doing some lifting. I already know a couple precautions like balancing at 15-20%, and making sure to get the CG far enough ahead. Anything else I should be thinking about with one?
I know this is a load of questions, but I have a lot to learn and any advice is greatly appreciated.
Tanks
1. How heavy can a model be and still get unlimited vertical from a Norvel 061?
2. What ballpark wing area should I shoot for with the 061?
3. Any basic rules as to how much servo I need for a certain size plane? I have some CS-10s (7oz/in); what is the largest plane or biggest engine you would venture to use these with?
4. You guys must use fairly standard sizes for 1/2a spars, rib thickness, etc. Any suggestions of starting points?
5. Finally, I'm really considering a flying wing. It seems logical to me that a flying wing would be the most versatile kind of model since the entire surface is doing some lifting. I already know a couple precautions like balancing at 15-20%, and making sure to get the CG far enough ahead. Anything else I should be thinking about with one?
I know this is a load of questions, but I have a lot to learn and any advice is greatly appreciated.
Tanks
03-20-2004, 03:13 AM
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RE: A few questions
>1. How heavy can a model be and still get unlimited vertical from a Norvel 061?
The other guys here have been testing how much thrust you can get so I'll leave that to them. But you should only make the model about 80% the weight of the maximum amount of thrust since you still need to have some reserve to actually FLY upwards. Otherwise it'll slow down over the long haul from the drag and then fall off, or just hover if you can see it and control it. But if you want to aspire to doing hovering then the model needs to be somewhere in the range of 10 oz or less.
>2. What ballpark wing area should I shoot for with the 061?
Depends on what you want to do with it. For racing you can get away with as little as 130 sq inches. For general fun models we usually use about 220 to 260. For a powered speedy glider 400 to 500 would be nice. For a basic uphill glide you can put the engine on a 2 meter span 30 oz model.
>3. Any basic rules as to how much servo I need for a certain size plane? I have some CS-10s (7oz/in); what is the largest plane or biggest engine you would venture to use these with?
That's a bit light even for a 1/2A. It would probably be fine on the throttle or rudder but for the elevator and ailerons of a fun fly type or a faster model I think you want something a bit more skookum. The guys here are using HS55's that have about 12 or 15 inch-oz IIRC. Even that would be a little light for a fun fly type with large surfaces. Not just for the flight loads either. The large surfaces would make it easy to nudge the controls and damage the servo gears.
>4. You guys must use fairly standard sizes for 1/2a spars, rib thickness, etc. Any suggestions of starting points?
Not really, It varies depending on the type of structure. Some models get away with just the wing sheeting and no spars. You'd have to get more specific about WHAT STYLE of wing construction you want to know about.
>5. Finally, I'm really considering a flying wing. It seems logical to me that a flying wing would be the most versatile kind of model since the entire surface is doing some lifting. I already know a couple precautions like balancing at 15-20%, and making sure to get the CG far enough ahead. Anything else I should be thinking about with one?
Um... CG and balance point are the same thing. Flying wings can be good but not for every application. Or sometimes folks just like the look of a nicely set up conventional model. But if you want to do flying wings you could certainly do worse. You also need to consider the airfoil and how much washout to incorporate. If you want to do stunts then just stick to a symmetrical airfoil and reflex the elevons up a little. That way you also don't need any washout warped into the wing.
By newbie are you reffering to 1/2A flying in particular or model flying in general? If so then starting with a full on aerobatic model is a good way to learn how to do LOTS of repairs and develop lots of frustration....
The other guys here have been testing how much thrust you can get so I'll leave that to them. But you should only make the model about 80% the weight of the maximum amount of thrust since you still need to have some reserve to actually FLY upwards. Otherwise it'll slow down over the long haul from the drag and then fall off, or just hover if you can see it and control it. But if you want to aspire to doing hovering then the model needs to be somewhere in the range of 10 oz or less.
>2. What ballpark wing area should I shoot for with the 061?
Depends on what you want to do with it. For racing you can get away with as little as 130 sq inches. For general fun models we usually use about 220 to 260. For a powered speedy glider 400 to 500 would be nice. For a basic uphill glide you can put the engine on a 2 meter span 30 oz model.
>3. Any basic rules as to how much servo I need for a certain size plane? I have some CS-10s (7oz/in); what is the largest plane or biggest engine you would venture to use these with?
That's a bit light even for a 1/2A. It would probably be fine on the throttle or rudder but for the elevator and ailerons of a fun fly type or a faster model I think you want something a bit more skookum. The guys here are using HS55's that have about 12 or 15 inch-oz IIRC. Even that would be a little light for a fun fly type with large surfaces. Not just for the flight loads either. The large surfaces would make it easy to nudge the controls and damage the servo gears.
>4. You guys must use fairly standard sizes for 1/2a spars, rib thickness, etc. Any suggestions of starting points?
Not really, It varies depending on the type of structure. Some models get away with just the wing sheeting and no spars. You'd have to get more specific about WHAT STYLE of wing construction you want to know about.
>5. Finally, I'm really considering a flying wing. It seems logical to me that a flying wing would be the most versatile kind of model since the entire surface is doing some lifting. I already know a couple precautions like balancing at 15-20%, and making sure to get the CG far enough ahead. Anything else I should be thinking about with one?
Um... CG and balance point are the same thing. Flying wings can be good but not for every application. Or sometimes folks just like the look of a nicely set up conventional model. But if you want to do flying wings you could certainly do worse. You also need to consider the airfoil and how much washout to incorporate. If you want to do stunts then just stick to a symmetrical airfoil and reflex the elevons up a little. That way you also don't need any washout warped into the wing.
By newbie are you reffering to 1/2A flying in particular or model flying in general? If so then starting with a full on aerobatic model is a good way to learn how to do LOTS of repairs and develop lots of frustration....
03-20-2004, 04:31 AM
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RE: A few questions
Budd:
Bruce has done as good a job on your questions as (I think) can be done. But the general tenor of your post makes me think you want to jump with both feet into water over your head, and you've not even learned to dog paddle, much less swim.
Start by building kits, and after you have completed several you will have a much better idea of what is needed to scratch one for yourself. Or if you don't want to go with kits, get some sets of plans and build to them.
But a scratch build for your first plane is almost a guaranteed disaster.
Bill.
Bruce has done as good a job on your questions as (I think) can be done. But the general tenor of your post makes me think you want to jump with both feet into water over your head, and you've not even learned to dog paddle, much less swim.
Start by building kits, and after you have completed several you will have a much better idea of what is needed to scratch one for yourself. Or if you don't want to go with kits, get some sets of plans and build to them.
But a scratch build for your first plane is almost a guaranteed disaster.
Bill.
03-20-2004, 12:15 PM
#4
RE: A few questions
HI BUDD! I like questions like yours, it sounds like you are after top performance[8D]! The BIG MIG .061 will haul 12ozs straight up, the AME will haul at least 18 ozs. A 30" by 8" [counting flaps] wing is good to try, 3/16" by 3/16" spars and L.E., 3/32" ribs and T.E. sheet. The ailerons/ elevons can be made from 3/32" sheet. The wing tips should be 3/32" sheet laminated to the end ribs. The fuselage box can be made entirely out of 3/32" sheet, and a 1/8" ply firewall . Lots of 3/32" sheet is a good thing to have on hand for 1/2A building! The wing dowel reenforcement can be strips of 1/32" ply, and 3/16" dowels will be strong enough. 1/8" sheet is strong enough for the tail surfaces. I have built several rectangular flying wings for combat that have 36" of span to make picking off streamers easier, and they fly very nicely. I have plans and a couple of kits available. I've also got plans for a 1/2A DIAMOND DUST [delta] that weighs 12 ozs [RTF] that will knock your socks off[X(]!
03-20-2004, 01:23 PM
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RE: A few questions
Thanks a million for your responses! This is exactly the info I was wanting to know.
About the CG on the flying wing.... what I meant is it seems like it would be hard to get everything to balance far enough forward on a flying wing without good planning (since there is little room for equipment ahead of the CG).
Didn't mean to sound like a lunatic who wants to scratch his first plane! ....I am a newbie to 1/2a, but I started with the .40 size planes ~10yrs ago. Started with a sturdy birdy, then I build a scale decathlon w/ a .46, and a beautiful super skybolt w/ a thunder tiger .91 4-stroke. My last big plane project was a scratch-built .60 size pattern ship. I've got a good understanding of aerodynamics so that's not a problem.
Last year I started flying this little electric, and started to really like the little planes because I can fly 'em right in front of my house instead of packing up all kinds of junk, heading to the field, only to have something go wrong and having to go back home [
] There were some things I didn't like about electric though, so that's why I'm wanting to try out a Norvel.
Hey combatpigg; you've caught my interest on the Diamond Dust...[>:]...Can I get some more info on that, please?
Anyway guys, thanks again for your responses. Sounds like some good starting points.
About the CG on the flying wing.... what I meant is it seems like it would be hard to get everything to balance far enough forward on a flying wing without good planning (since there is little room for equipment ahead of the CG).
Didn't mean to sound like a lunatic who wants to scratch his first plane!
....I am a newbie to 1/2a, but I started with the .40 size planes ~10yrs ago. Started with a sturdy birdy, then I build a scale decathlon w/ a .46, and a beautiful super skybolt w/ a thunder tiger .91 4-stroke. My last big plane project was a scratch-built .60 size pattern ship. I've got a good understanding of aerodynamics so that's not a problem.Last year I started flying this little electric, and started to really like the little planes because I can fly 'em right in front of my house instead of packing up all kinds of junk, heading to the field, only to have something go wrong and having to go back home [
] There were some things I didn't like about electric though, so that's why I'm wanting to try out a Norvel.Hey combatpigg; you've caught my interest on the Diamond Dust...[>:]...Can I get some more info on that, please?
Anyway guys, thanks again for your responses. Sounds like some good starting points.
03-20-2004, 11:56 PM
#6
RE: A few questions
HEY BUDD! You mean I get to talk about my airplanes again? If I was elected ABSOLUTE RULER OF THE WORLD, I would order everyone to get a 1/2A DIAMOND DUST! The rectangular wing thing is for RC combat, and it needs to balance at 25%. The picture with the ruler should help, otherwise you can cough up some cash and I'll mail you plans
! The swept wing pusher with the AME flies good, but if it wasn't for the AME .061, it would be pretty ho hum. Sounds like you have a pretty well rounded background in RC and are ready to make the BIG DIVE into 1/2A!
If I was elected ABSOLUTE RULER OF THE WORLD, I would order everyone to get a 1/2A DIAMOND DUST! The rectangular wing thing is for RC combat, and it needs to balance at 25%. The picture with the ruler should help, otherwise you can cough up some cash and I'll mail you plans! The swept wing pusher with the AME flies good, but if it wasn't for the AME .061, it would be pretty ho hum. Sounds like you have a pretty well rounded background in RC and are ready to make the BIG DIVE into 1/2A!
