forsakenrider

I still havent ran the one doug did up for me yet.

Also, I found the crank from the Fuji 05 almost fits. Needs a few thou shaved off in front of the crank web so it would slide in all the way, and then a new smaller bushing pressed into the con rod. Im pretty sure this would lower the stroke a bit to.

Its on the list of things to do....

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I went to order one but they want 20 bucks for shipping. That's some 60% of the cost. Shoot, HobbyKing, all the way from around the world would charge only about 5 dollars for such an item. Oh well, didn't NEED it, wanted it for the superb, piston, sleeve and rod.

aspeed

I picked a new one up @ the Toledo show, $35.  So far I roughed out a backplate (it had a pullstart) and turned the head fins down.  Still lots of things to do, grind off the crankpin stub, drill the backplate holes, make a carb and needle valve, drive plate and collet....

DeviousDave

Was it the one in the swap area right above the entrance to the main show? I passed on that one to save my money for the rest of the swap area and then go back for it but I forgot about it. I've got three and don't really need it but after seeing they are available still I may pick a few up for the piston/liners for an inline I'd like to do. you must have beat him up a bit, it was $50 when I saw it.

aspeed

Sounds like the same guy. Said $50, $250 retail.  I always try for a deal.. I knew I could get them for $30 plus shipping, and there was a Turbo plug with it, so I held out. He told me I had to smile for that price, so that wasn't a problem.  I have trouble getting things mail order when it gets to the door, never hear the end of it. I paid about that much for a GZ .049 there.  It is real slow, worse than a TD.  You must have gone to Toledo real early because I was there when it opened Friday.

Toad

when ya get one going, you will love it. easy to start and bullet proof with an 8mm crank. lots of work getting there though.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I just bought $10,000 worth of machine shop equipment so I could make one of these engines run as good as a $250 Cyclon.

aspeed

CP, are you being facetious, again, or did you really take the plunge?  A Cyclon is much faster than the Picco isn't it?  Excuse me for my expected thickness.  I bought used machinery to play with.  It was supposed to make money for me but didn't turn out that way, so now that I retired + - it is good to do some machining for about an hour a month. (max)

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

How fast will a 250 dollar Cyclon run? What fuel, what prop? What will it do on a 5 X 2 APC?

How much does a Cyclon weigh?

I have a Taig lathe with a few attachements. Cost about 300 dolars in total. Maybe that's all it takes.

I'll give it a go. I might even be able to install ball bearings. Would this help?


Would anyone pay 250 for such an item with the appeal being a far lighter engine?


What I would need is the non throttling carb bits.

controlliner

Ya know what's funny about the writeup on the little Picco? They advertise it as an excellent paperweight. LOL

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I'm being facetious...but would love to have the spare time and money [and training] to build engines from the ground up.
Andy, I can't think of any reason why I'd bolt a 5x2 to a Cyclon. A Cyclon 1cc will turn a 4.2x4 APC in the mid to high 30's on 10-25% nitro.
I've also used a 5x3 on a Cyclon for towing RC combat planes [more weight and drag than a RC speedster].
For C/L combat IIRC the props fall into the 5x2.8 range, with the idea to let the engine run at 35,000 or so without bogging down during tight manuevers.
The neatest thing about these engines is very rarely do they ever break down even though they get crashed repeatedly win or lose.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

CP,

I mentioned that prop only because that's one I have on hand. But thanks for the info, I'll work towards that goal. HobbyKing asks for inventions/ideas that they can put into production. I've approached them with some of my work and we shall see.

We need an engine that will go fast for the combat guys and maybe with a tweak or two, the same engine can be used for RC.

I respect the design philosophy of the Cyclon etc. people, no doubt their engines are robust for a reason. But if the engine were equal in power at a far better price, would a disposable, combat engine gain traction? Say four for the same price of a Cyclon.

Toad

why the hell would ya buy 10k in equipment to build an engine when ya can just bottom feed from others what you need?? LOL
Wish I had that kind of coin... glad I already have the machines. [8D] (the machines are my income )

aspeed

I picked up a Taig at a garage sale for a couple hundred too, it isn't too bad really, considering.  I use it in the house when I want to make something and don't feel like freezing or sweating in the outside shop. The Hardinge chucker was only $2500, and it is a turret lathe, so it wouldn't be too bad for making like 50  parts or whatever. The mill was $3,500.  Now you can get them for $1000 with a digital readout sometimes.  I was going to make a run of 500 or so motors for $100 each many moons ago, but then CNC's became the norm, and motors are $50 now.  I still wonder if the Fora, Cyclon's are leaps and bounds faster than the Picco.  Picco used to be pretty good.  This one just underdesigned the crank a bit.  I was going to make a run of cranks with a stud for the prop, and a smaller bore and make it a real .049 instead of the .052 or whatever it is.  I don't have a cyl. grinder, but could likely still do it.  It is still a side exhaust though.

forsakenrider

Argh! I want a taig! At a garage sale? dang, need to find me those garage sales!

And the picco currently holds the CL proto speed record if that means anything, I think it does.

Toad

I made a few 8mm cranks. Ran them alot. They used a replacable stud. Boring the case to accept it was fun. I plan on making a rear exhaust version someday. I didnt know the p8 has the current record for profile. [8D]

aspeed

That is what they were saying, but I was watching the 1/2A combat with the Russian motors and they looked pretty fast too. The speed guys said the Picco was better. I don't have any numbers, but am curious. I likely won't fly speed any more but who knows, I may find a big parking lot somewhere. The Taig isn't too expensive new. Look it up, I think a basic one is about $400. +++++ There is a milling attachment and a mill too. Check Kijiji or Craigslist, stuff comes up all the time. There is Lathe/Mill combo's too, Smithy Granite series is worth a look too. It is only money, you can always get more. Used stuff keeps it's value normally.(unless I buy it)

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Andy...I don't know how many guys are flying 1/2A combat world wide..but the number is probably in the low hundreds. Those who do already have gray hair and they already have 90% of what they'll ever need for power to fly a few contests and some practice from year to year. There are very few young guys coming up who will replace the older guys..but in some cases they will inherit existing equipment or buy it for 50 cents on the dollar at online auctions.
So....I don't think developing a low cost engine that can compete with Cyclon, Fora, Zalp, Profi [and maybe others I haven't heard of yet] will have much of a payoff.
If you could take the $30 Picco and upgrade the crank [like Toad does]...how long do you figure it would take to sell enough units [500?] to bring the cost of the better cranks down to a profitable amount...?
You've also got competition from the Cox and Norvel outfits..even though they also serve to whet some guy's appetites for an engine like an improved Picco.
Selling improved Piccos in any large quantity could bring "bad [>:] fortune" upon someone, sometime during the night..so the idea of this sort of a venture keeps getting sketchier and sketchier.....

Toad

Good points.
No way would I want to make even 25 more cranks. I cant make em for cheap. Fun to make a few though.that is the hobby for me.god forbid it turns into a money venture like work. Ack. When I commit to make say like 10 parts to sell, it drives me nuts untill I finish them and I procrastinate. Takes all the fun out of it for me. Tis why I dont do it. Plus a feller like me cant afford to back the broken parts people claim. I machine all day long, I have to get in the mood to stand at the machines late into the night these days. Galbreath seems to enjoy it because he dont do it all day long before he makes the hobby parts.I do want to make a rear exhaust one soon though.

forsakenrider

What about making the picco rear intake? The rotor could probably be delrin and it would possible allow you to use the bearings/their size. Maybe easier to make a stronger crank. Yes the engine becomes longer, but not that much.

I know nothing about machining, but it seems like it would take less work then making 8mm cranks. No need to bore the case or machine the spot for the NVA. Shootin ideas!
[&:]

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

CP,

I suppose you're right, but you never know. I'm guessing that at the right price, those grey haired guys might spring for something new and unique, well made but cheap and LIGHT. A Cyclon delivers, but at the same weight as an OS .10. I have an OS .10 with a Norvel .15 piston and cylinder installed. As I recall, it comes to a .14. Shoot, because the Norvel P&L is aluminum and the original OS is a steel P&L, my upgraded version is no heavier than the original.

If I put on a typical, 1/2A combat prop, what would it turn at? I just may do a YT video to see.

So yes, a 1/2A Cyclon will deliver far more power than the best, Norvel .049 but at a great cost in power to weight. AND higher monetary cost.

And it's not hard to add ball bearings. In fact, I've installed ball bearings and a Norvel .074 crank into a Norvel .049 case. This was to be a true, long stroke .06.

What's hard is to install ball bearings into a case that takes the Norvel's .049/06 odd sized crank. No one makes a suitable bearing. So I hope to take the Brodak MK1 ( or MK2) case as a starting point. I've installed the Picco P&L into such a case because it takes the Picco crank with no mods. But I did it for a throttle and never did run a combat sized prop. I managed to break that crank so I may need to cannabilize my other Picco. Pics included. The Brodak/Picco hybrid looks pretty neat, a 1/2A but with the look of any larger engine.

I suppose that it all depends on how much it would cost HK's engine people to make it. What if their cost was 15 dollars and they had a market that would buy it at 60? They might just take the chance.

What if I agreed to buy their entire, first production run?

I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, though. Those folks go after the guys who invent over unity or zero point energy machines. [X(]

aspeed

Over the years it has been proven that rear rotor motors are slower at higher revs at least. Toad, the AP .09 and .15 motors have a good simple design that has the bypass channels machined in the liner instead of the case. The .15 is machined all the way through to the piston. It wouldn't be too hard to make a case for something like that with a Picco or Norvel Piston/Cyl. The ball bearings would stop me from trying this. The Norvel case could be maybe epoxied up and a new exh. port machined in the back for a rear exh, although the Picco looks like a better liner design. As for Hobby King, maybe an exhaust at 45 degrees might be a good selling design. The OS has the liner at an angle and a side exh. That could easily be a rear exh. with a 45 degree exit, and then an adapter for rear or side.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

OS configured their exhaust in that way so that they could use simple, teflon pads to hold the piston pin in place. The holes in the piston ride between the ports in the cylinder. But in any case, I'm not sure why the really fast engines are done this way. Why not straight back?

About rear intake, how about a reed valve set up? Pictured is a reed valve and rear mount made up for me by Japanman when he got his CNC mill and lathe going some years ago. The pictures don't do it justice. This is the real deal, a proper reed assembly in miniature. As shown, both the backplate and the reed assembly were made for the Picco. The idea being, would it run faster as a rear, reed engine.

Using this assembly, and as you say, making up a case should be straighforward and in my situation, it could also have ball bearings.

That's two more things on a to do list that is approaching at least two dozen pending projects.

We may see more YT videos this summer. [8D]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

The rear rotor engines I've played with [K&B 6.5cc] worked OK but the mechanism adds some complexity [my opinion] vs an engine with crankshaft [front] intake with no extra moving parts.
That said, the most powerful COX .049 is the reed valve KillerBee.
More powerful than any TD I've ever handled.

The smaller KB crank has less drag as it rotates and the reed intake is capable of supporting at least 30,000 rpm.

The rear exhaust engines have such a huge aerodynamic advantage over side exhaust ..if you include the drag of the exhaust system. If you run open exhaust, then it is a moot point I guess.
A rear exhaust engine equipped with a tuned pipe could produce 10% less power than a piped side exhaust engine and the airplane will fly faster with the less powerful but more streamlined engine package.

aspeed

The older Rossi .15 motors had a rear rotor version and a front induction version and the FI always went faster in the glow form. Mostly I believe because of the extra drag of the rotor. It may possibly be the air being rammed through from the front and flowing/cooling better but I don't think so. The preferred motor was the RR because of an easier run on suction, but it was just slower. Now at least one F2A motor has done away with the inside race of the rear bearing and it rolls directly on the crankshaft. This saves some moving weight. The diesel team race motors still like the RR because of the crankcase stuffing improvement giving better mileage, but they never revved quite as high as the glows, running higher pitch props. I never had a Killer Bee, is the reed valve system different than say a Baby Bee/Surestart?Usually reed valves flutter after about 18,000 rpm and can't keep up. I like Japanmans setup, good results?