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Old 12-12-2010 | 10:03 AM
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min$2crash
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From: Idaho, MI
Default RE: Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 Size

I understand your point, debating the value of fuselage lift because it isn't a NACA airfoil, but keep in mind that in Knife Edge, especially for a lighter plane that can hold KE at less than hovering throttle, all you have is fuselage lift. Now any Extra needs a lot of throttle to hold KE at "normal" CG settings, because the side area is relatively low up front-so it is definitely in the direction of your "ignore the fuselage area" leaning vs a big, fat GeeBee- but I still hold that the nice smooth cowl makes a much better leading edge than the front of a brick! The fuse is a very low aspect ratio wing (gliders are High aspect ratio, which is more efficient). By ignoring the ~5.5" x ~30" belly of the front half of this fuselage you are neglecting some real lift. I don't think the back half does much if you ignore the tailfeathers.
I would hazard to guess that if you hung the fuselage in a 15 knot wind with the tail feathers off, it would lift a good 8 oz or more at 30 deg AOA. An ex-NASA aerodynamics expert speaking at our club pointed out that the lion's share (60% rings a bell) of lift is NOT from the celebrated Bernoulli effect of "faster on top" air sucking the wing vertically, but actually due to the conservation of momentum due to the simple deflection of air downward by the tilted (AOA) airfoil. There is a considerable downwash behind the lifting wing of even a glider. This, and very low weight explains how a flat airfoil works so well on those millions of foamies out there. The tilted fuselage does deflect air downward and thereby delivers some significant lift(say 5-10% of total)especially at 10deg AOA, just like putting your hand (or a brick) out a car window and tilting it. Neither the hand or brick will fly due to its weight, but it will be lifted some by diverting air downward.
Again, assuming that the purpose in doing a wing loading calculation is to understand the basic charachteristics of flight for a given model, like landing/stall speed, a profile fun fly and a big wide body GeeBee need the fuselage included in order for this calculation to be meaningful. The funky looking GeeBee is an extreme case, with fuselage area that is at least 1/4 of the wing area, probably 1/2.
On these Pheonix Extras it is more like 1/10 of the "actual" wing area that you use, so the fuselage area is proportionately less important.
You are still doing a good relative comparison of similar or identical planes' oz/sqft numbers without accounting for fuselage lift, but by ignoring fuselage lift, you will have a less valuable wing loading value when the fuselages vary significantly in fuselage planform area as a % of "actual" wing area.

PS I haven't found the chell specker yet on this site/forum either. Most of my posts get edited a day or two later when I re-read them. Other than when the odd argument gets nasty on some forums where the flame shields go up, we tend to just overlook each others typos and figure out what you "ment"!!!
And welcome to the forum, BTW- we're havin' a blast.

PPS: Looks like I was typing when you posted- U R welcome, and that's a cool avatar. Its a shame we can't post higher res avatars! Mine's half Bach, half the robot from the terminator. So "I'll be Bach" needs to be said with a certain (Austrian) California governor's accent. I'm not at all musical, just thought it was funny! I put Idaho, Michigan for my magical location- but we're below freezing here, too!