PKa, I just had my first good trimming day last weekend for my replacement Phoenix Extra. It was raining on and off and calm. I was not snapping out of loops, but my new build sure was "wonky" at full stick loops. These were the same throws that I had been using on my recently departed Phoenix Extra. I was used to a plane that was balanced and trimmed- elevators matched about perfectly. I got close with this new build, but the loops got remarkably better when I reduced throws a bit to make the elevators both match at full throw up and down. It was like a different plane. So when you get the lateral balance right, if it still isn't good enough, try lookng at the elevators very carefully at full throw, as well as center, and half throws. I have two servos back to back, but the elevators were off by less than 1/8" from each other at full elevator up and down. Adjusting the ATV did the trick for me. More precisely, I was adjusting the ele to gear channel mix that I use, with the second elevator servo on channel 5 (gear). I left the ATV alone, but either would do the trick.