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Old 03-04-2014 | 08:21 PM
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Rob2160
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Rob, I'm still going to disagree with you some here. While the same aerodynamic physics apply to our models, it is not a lateral crossover. I realize that I am repeating myself here but because of lower wing loadings and higher power to weight ratio models have a larger performance envelope. IMO getting hung up on all the full scale practices and or flight techniques means you are not exploring anywhere near your models potential nor yours. Now if that's your thing more power to you however some of us WANT to push that envelope. This means that we can and will do things that buck the full scale convention. Then again imagine if Art Schol or Leo Loudenslager didn't push the envelope? Am I correct when I bring up the fact that you did an aileron/rudder mix on your SE5? That's not full scale practice ( except Eurocoup ) I guess the point is that as R/C pilots we should not be held to the limitations of full scale aviation. To me it's irritating that when I instruct someone on a certain aspect of his R/C model just to have someone come along and say " that's not how we do it with real airplanes" well guess what I really don't care how YOU fly your full scale airplanes, I'm flying a MODEL and have zero interest in flying full scale. Name just about any R/C flying event and I have done it at the top level. Helicopters, sponsored pilot for GMP and then demo pilot/designer for Century. Sailplanes, 1996 US team selection finals. IMAC 2006 SW region runner up advanced class. Pylon 2012 Triangle series unlimited champion, 2013 Triangle series .46 modified Champion. I've had a few local pattern wins as well. Im not throwing all this out to brag. If that were my personality it would be reflected in my RCU profile, I'm just reinforcing the fact that when I offer someone advise it's because I have delt with the same issue as it applies to a MODEL. If you want to talk models then please do so I invite that conversation. If you want to talk about full scale piloting techniques then please take that conversation to the full scale forums.
Nothing wrong with pushing the envelope with advanced flying techniques and manoeuvres in models that are impossible in real aircraft. Heck that type of flying really does impress me (genuinely)

But this is the beginners forum and using rudder to compensate adverse yaw is a very basic concept taught to every student pilot in the early stages of flight training. I think it is very relevant to a beginners forum.

I think you might be surprised how many real aircraft do use an Aileron / Rudder interconnect of some type. Either a mechanical interconnect like some Piper, Grob, Beechcraft, CT4B air trainer aircraft or with a Yaw Damper on larger aircraft.

One of the functions of a Yaw Damper on virtually all turboprop, corporate jet and airliners is to correct for adverse yaw induced by ailerons.

So I have to disagree with you because an Aileron / Rudder "mix" of sorts is most certainly full scale practice.

As for my SE5a, if I was flying a real one, I would be the interconnect by coordinating rudder input with my aileron input to correct adverse yaw.

Perhaps I should be doing it manually with my RC models also and controlling the rudder myself to coordinate the turns, but as mentioned in a previous discussion, I am too lazy and the electronic mix in the radio does a superb job of providing exactly the rudder needed to compensate for adverse yaw. (after experimenting to get the right percentage mix for each aircraft - I only use it for lazy sport flying in my scale models and not in my aerobatic planes)

You are certainly free to fly your aircraft however you wish. As is anyone, but just because some of us fly full size does not mean we are not legitimate RC pilots also.

The question raised by the OP was using rudder to turn an aircraft and using aileron to reduce the bank. Even if I was an RC pilot with no full size experience, (which I was for 3 years) I would have jumped into this thread, based purely on my own experience as an RC pilot who was taught by a very good RC instructor (with no full size experience) never to turn that way.

So my argument in this thread would be identical if purely based on 35 years of flying RC aircraft.

To answer your question JPerrone, Adverse yaw comes from different drag on each wing when the ailerons are deflected.

The down going aileron changes the camber of the wing, producing more lift, but the penalty of lift is drag, so the down going aileron produces more drag.

The up going aileron reduces the camber (curvature) of the wing and this reduces lift and reduces drag, so you have different drag on each wing.

This will cause the aircraft to yaw, in the opposite direction to the roll. IE roll left, the aircraft will yaw right. Applying rudder in the direction of the roll will compensate for this adverse yaw. Adverse yaw is only there while ailerons are deflected. Not when they are neutral.

Speedracentrixie correctly states that adverse yaw can be minimised by the use of differential ailerons, and also by the use of Frise ailerons, where the up going aileron projects a portion of itself into the airstream under the wing to deliberately increase drag to balance the drag on the other wing.

These two design features work very well.

Here is a beautifully constructed Frise aileron, (on an RC model to keep it relevant to Models only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtd9Bo7VW3U More reading on Adverse yaw here, with good explanations of how adverse yaw is corrected - I don't make this stuff up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_yaw

Here is a beautiful statement from that article about how Adverse Yaw can be corrected.

The effect can be greatly minimized with ailerons or other mechanisms deliberately designed to create more drag when deflected upward than downward and/or mechanisms which automatically apply some amount of coordinated rudder.

If you still don't believe me, here is a NASA paper on the subject.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/p...main_H-584.pdf

With some notable extracts.

The aileron-to-rudder interconnect was found to be effective in compensating for adverse aileron yaw, and turns could be made easier and more accurately

and

the preceding relationship implies that turn coordination can be achieved relatively simply by filtering a signal proportional to aileron position and applying it to the rudder.

That last one is exactly what an Aileron / Rudder mix does in an RC aircraft.

Last edited by Rob2160; 03-04-2014 at 09:21 PM.