SORRY ABOUT the confusion.[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] For some reason I figured that WM stood for WAR MODELS. I shouldn't skim read the posts! Historically the pattern guys have gone for pretty hi pitched props, and some kind of a perverted desire to have that low rpm, quiet kind of performance. It's like watching paint dry. These planes can be made to be much more fun, especially on a short field with a large diameter, low pitched prop. Your plane will seem to hang in the air better during tumbling manuevers, and give you more time to make subtle corrections while you are going nuts with it. The other guys who fly their pattern planes'"by the book" at our short field have to kill their engines on final, and that works well for them. I will give the pattern guys credit for one thing though, they are masters at getting 5 pounds worth of stuff to do 10 pounds worth of work!