SORRY ABOUT the confusion.[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] For some reason I figured that WM stood for WAR MODELS. I shouldn't skim read the posts! Historically the pattern guys have gone for pretty hi pitched props, and some kind of a perverted desire to have that low rpm, quiet kind of performance. It's like watching paint dry. These planes can be made to be much more fun, especially on a short field with a large diameter, low pitched prop. Your plane will seem to hang in the air better during tumbling manuevers, and give you more time to make subtle corrections while you are going nuts with it. The other guys who fly their pattern planes'"by the book" at our short field have to kill their engines on final, and that works well for them. I will give the pattern guys credit for one thing though, they are masters at getting 5 pounds worth of stuff to do 10 pounds worth of work!

Forestroke,

I really can't recommend mixing throttle with ANY flight control. Also, during approach, you'd not want to have to add/kill a mix when you need to make a quick adjustment. You need to practice to the point where it's instinctive. Having to recall whether you turned the mix on or off delays any kind of reaction if you need to react to something quickly, such as a gust. The simpler you can make things, the better.

bax

HEY RAZOR! I'll challenge you to a ROLLING CONTEST!! I've got a 28" span delta that is red on top and white on the botton. It turns PINK when you roll it! The doppler sound effects are at least a half roll behind what your eye is seeing! An AME 061 on 30% hauls this 12 ozs pretty good. You guys have sparked my interest in the ZEN and the YS, gotta stop looking in on this website, even though it's free, it still costs me money! Jealousy is a powerful emotion![tell that to the 3rd world people who "hate" us]YS also has their own soft mount system?

Combatpigg - although way off topic, I heard the DZ from Y.S. is the mother of all engines... when I get a garage, I'm gonna get me one of those and find a plane to put it in! But in terms of pattern planes, I wouldn't get another Zen. Although the kit is good and all, I think the weight of retracts is not welcomed in a pattern plane. I'd rather get one with fixed gear. The .63... well, nothing to say about that! It's a sweet sweet engine

I like to slip my Sukhoi in to scrub off speed. That coupled with a large prop for the braking effect. Works for me.

HI FORESTROKE! THANKS FOR THE INFO! By the way, it's your post, and you can direct the conversation any which way youn want. It's not like we started talking about the price of gasoline! AERONAUT brings up something that I don't think has been brought up, wagging the rudder when you come in. Pointing the nose into the wind helps. But junking the retracts is going to pay dividends. The 60 size pattern ships that are competitive have their strength designed around the retract system, and it's amazing how lightly these planes are built. You won't see too many of these guys thrashing their planes like a stunt flyer would. They are built as lightly, with the same thickness materials as some .25 size planes. A lot of their strength comes from girth, thick airfoils, thick stabs, etc. I doubt that a mass produced pattern ship would be designed as lightly, so the weight penalty of retracts is an unrealistic burden for a sport flyer. Retracts are a prestige, image kind of thing, and don't really contribute to the fun that you should be having with as light a ship as that ZEN 50 can be!

Combatpigg - absolutely... the first thing I wanted to do was take out that silly retract system... it makes the plane much heavier than it needs to be. As for slipping the plane... that's a great idea... I use to do that but I've gotten complacent since my other planes only need less than half the runway to land. I guess it's back to relearning the basics! I was wondering though... slipping the plane reduces the airspeed but doesn't that still risk stalling?

Aeronaut - I totally forgot about slipping the plane. I use to love it... watching it slip as it comes in to land is a great sight. I might just do it for the fun of it! Even if it doesn't solve my problems!

FORESTROKE! Yes, you are tempting the GROUND GODS with a sacrifice if you slow your plane down too much doing the RUDDER DANCE! Practice this technique one mistake high. Your BORN AGAIN ZEN will have shed some of its' worldly possesions, so it's KARMA RATING will be high enough to delay stalls, and once again BE AT ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE! FORESTROKE!, You have suffered long enough in THE LAND OF THE LEAD SLEDS! It is time now to truly enjoy the FREEDOM OF LIGHTNESS! By the way, since you won't be needing those retracts any longer.....OH! another tip, with my MORRIS HOBBIES SUDOKOI, if I think I'm coming in too hot, [like 5 MPH ]or so, I do a quick inside loop over the runway to get the speed down to something that I can handle!

Slipping, rudder dancing, low pitch props, all add drag but none of them will let an aircraft with a high wing loading land slowly. The problem is not how to get it to slow down but how to get the airplane to fly slowly without stalling. The only solution is less weight, or more wing area.

No matter what, I'll keep you guys informed! Thanks!

i haven't had time to really fly the plane yet but i realized something that could be one of the culprits.

For some reason, my engine doesn't idle immediately. Instead it get "stuck" at a higher RPM for about 10 seconds before it will idle. Does anyone know what's the problem and how would I be able to solve it?

Thanks!!!

too rich of an idle mixture. when you throttle down the engine it is still clear of excess fuel, but as it stays longer in idle, its loading up from too much fuel and slows down. Do a pinch test on it, run it at high rpm then bring it to idle, let the idle settle to a steady RPM then pinch your fuel line. if you rpms quickly raise then drop off, its good, but if they raise more then 200 - 300 rpm your running too rich. lean it out till you get a slight rpm increase and then it cuts off. good luck. BTW i used this method on a newly broken in motor on one of my students trainers and we got the engine dialed in nicely. It also works for the high end needle too. same method, just at full throttle instead of idle, but i use a tach instead of the pinch test for high rpm.

sean

Thanks Sean,

But I'm in a little of a conundrum since to get the engine to pass the vertical test, I have to run it half turn richer. If I lean it out too much, I'm afraid that I will have to practice my deadstick landings frequently! Can I lean out the low needle and not have to worry about it as long as I can pass the vertical test on full throttle?

By the way, Sean, can you explain to me why the pinch test works? It is because it essentially leans out your mixture and thus the slight blip in RPM? A slight blip means that you are running just slightly rich, right?

Sorry, fourstroke, didn't mean to imply you were blaming the airplane; your FZ63 wasn't too light, your airplane was too heavy! Just look at it the other way around! Been flying YS 1.20 supercharged for five years in Cermark Pitts models; never had to touch anything. Good luck...JIM

Fourstroke, I am sorry if i mislead you, i was talking about doing the pinch test to set the idle mixture. It works because if it is getting too much fuel on idle, when you pinch it, it will lean out. That will cause the rpm rise. Now whether its a small or large rpm rise shows you how rich or lean the low end is. You wan a small rise then the engine to start to die, if you get large of a rise then that means you are too rich. if you get no rise and then a sudden cut-off, then you are too lean on the low end. Generally i like to see a 100-200 rom rise on my tach when i pinch test the idle. Any higher then that and the engine will load up on fuel at idle, then it may stumble when you increase throttle as it try's to clear out the excess fuel. And yes, leaning out the low end needle has no effect on the high end needle, so passing the vertical test wont be a problem. If you need to run your high end a half turn richer you may want to look at your fuel line plumbing. If your tank to high speed needle line is too long then the engine will have trouble drawing fuel (Ask me how i know ) and that may be why you have trouble getting fuel to the carb in a vertical test. Good luck and ask me if you need any more help, you can just PM me instead of using this thread.

sean