ynv50, I think you mean rolling circles and rolling harriers. Took me a long time to get those down. It's all about timing. The 4* with the dehedral doesn't like to do it, but if you remove the dehedral, it is better. Also, if you remove the outter wing bay on each wing, the roll rate will increase, but makes the plane land faster and it doesn't float as much due to the increased wing load.