jatkiss

Thanks Jim,

It is really just the question on the Ailerons that really stumps me. I know I could probably modify something, but I want to make sure since it's my first build that I do it right. Already have the Clip Hinge Control Horns in the bottom set. I just need to know what to do with the top set. I don't need a full set of photo's just a snapshot of the bottom of the wings would ROCK !!

- Jeff

jatkiss

Any progress on the plane ? I am nearing the end of what I can actually build without the ailerons attached. Hope you can help soon. Have you ever bought a plane...started putting it together...built it and then thought to yourself...man I wish I would have bought two. I could make all the mistakes on the first one and by the time I make it to the second...it will be a piece of cake =-).

- Jeff

3DNobody

LOL

I used to build model cars years ago. If I was building a contest model, I would buy at least 2 kits. I would just glue one together right out of the box to find out where all the trouble spots would be, and to help "plan" the build. Of course, these kits are a little more expensive than model car kits...

Let me see if I can help you with your problem.

The stand alone control horn in the picture is used on the bottom ailerons only. They go into the innermost hinge slot and should extend down (so that the servo linkages connect to them. On the top two ailerons, you just use a regular hinge clip in that position.

The stand alone control horn is used in only 4 places total. The elevator, rudder, left & right aileron.

Unfortunately, I don't have a good picture right now of what you are talking about...but if you look at the bottom of pages 14 and 15 there are two pictures of how they should look when finished.

HTH
-Jeff

jatkiss

Ok that makes sense. That is what I did on the bottom ailerons ( without it sitting in front of me...at least I think that is what I did). What I noticed about the other control horn's (the ones not in the picture), is that they were a little long for the slot...do you just push it in further and cut into the foam a bit? It really did hang out quite a ways (like 1/4") from the back of the wing.

Ohh one more question. You know the pieces that the diag. carbon rods go through to hold the shape of the wings in place (they hold the rods that are the landing gear). They are the small little spacers with the holes in them. Anyway, when I was cutting them off the form, there were only 11 of them (instead of 12). So I put the ones into the wings, and then three of them onto the main fuselage. I have one that is open. My concern is that with tight turns when the plane flexes there could be tearing of the foam...should I worry about this ? Anything I can do as a temporary...or is it something that should be ok ?

Thanks so much for the advice. Of course I didn't choose an easy build for the first one =- ). Sure have learned a TON though...can't wait to try flying it.

Thanks again everyone !!

- Jeff

3DNobody

If you are talking about the aileron link control horns, they should stick out past the control surface a little. To be clear...these are not the "clips" that hold the control surfaces on, but the horns that connect the upper and lower ailerons together. One tip I can give here in addition...make sure that the z-bends move very freely in each control horn. I had a little drag still in mine to keep the slop out...but ended up with binding in the ailerons, and they would not center correctly. I ended up cutting the original hardware out of the aileron links and built that from scratch...no problems now.

As far as your other problem goes...that is a bummer you are 1 short. I think that this kit is the only one that requires all 12... If I were to leave it out somewhere, I would leave it out of the fuse in the rear X section. After everything is installed, take some thread and tie the unsuported piece to the piece that has the plastic support right in the middle. Use a few loops of thread. Then put some CA on it to help hold everything together.

If you can wait, and really want this part...you could call Great Planes, and I bet they will send you one. Just a thought.

jatkiss

Excellent. So the top ones have the horns and the bottom ones have the clips. Gotcha !! I will take some pictures either tonight or tomorrow of what I have just to make sure I have it done correctly. I really appreciate you guys helping me out. It's all part of the learning process !!

I will also try and make sure that I have at least some sort of support on the Carbon Support Rods.

Thanks so much!!

- Jeff

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

If you want to see what the "Reflection" can do when set-up properly...check out the thread I posted called "Great Planes Reflection Formation Flying...with PICS!!!!"

You'll see some cool pictures that really show the reflection tearing up the skys indoors. It was SOOOOOOOO much fun flying for those pictures. We had a blast.....next week Ill try to get some pics of all three Reflections airborne and flying in tight formation. We would have done it tonight, but Tony's only charged lipo went dead before we could get them all up.

The yak was piloted by Tony Stillman
The Reflection with the sticker on the top wing is piloted by me.
The Reflection with no sticker is piloted by Bill Altman

3DNobody

OK...I will see your COOL pics and raise you one video...

I have put this up in other places but not here yet. This is a video that I put together over the weekend. It is flight #3 and #4 on this plane, and in the lightest wind I have been able to fly in so far. This plane is SO much fun!

http://www.project-seven.goof.com/videos/Reflection.wmv

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Nice Video. These planes are awesome.

I wasnt that impressed with the flatana, but the reflection is fantastic. Definatly the one to get out of all of them. Im still exploring the aerobatics this thing is capable of. It can do some really wild jaw-dropping maneuvers. Snapping tail slides look really cool.

Pull the nose up into a hover. Pull the power off a little and allow it to tail slide, Shove in all your controls for a snap roll, It will snap around, and the nose will flip over and down, then shove full throttle to it while holding the snap, and it will do this really tight crazy looking half flat spin half snap roll thing.

Basically get some altitude, and shove the sticks in the corner of the box in any direction, and watch the thing go nuts.

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Ok, heres the equipment run down for what Im flying.

Rimfire motor
Electrifly BL-8 ESC
Futaba S3108 servos
E-tec 3cell 1250mah lipo.
Bluebird Rx

The CG is dead on to the manual. Seems to work fine. Might try moving it back a little and see what happens.
Scrap every piece of info they gave you with the rimfire. Run a 10x3.8 prop....perfection.

Thing hovers like a dream. Once you get it stable, it will pretty much just sit there (assuming your flying indoors with no wind)

The plane really flys well indoors. Its ok outdoors, but go inside and the thing turns into a whole other airplane.

jatkiss

Hoping to finish mine this weekend !! Man weather is going to be sucky here in Orlando though...and I"m not sure indoors is something I should attempt for my maiden =- ).

- Jeff

3DNobody

Well, I got the Rimfire today. Put it in and took your suggestion on the 10x3.8 prop and used my Great Things 1200 3-cell pack (untill my 900s get here). My RTF weight went up 2oz to 13. The plane has been transformed! [X(] The Rimfire has ridiculous power with that prop. Plus I was getting 15 minutes of HARD flying. I also moved my CG more forward and ended up about 1/4" behind the recommended spot. It seems to lock into the hover a little better there and overall flight seems better. The only thing it seemed to hurt was the hands off rolling circles...just couldn't maintain the altitude. Once, I put it into a hover and put in full right aileron. It "locked" in with the tail wobbling a bit, but just stayed there...I went up...I went down...just rolling away. Finally the wind pushed it out of my flying area and I pulled out of it. I can't get enough of this crazy thing.

In its portly state, it still flew VERY slow when I wanted it to and seemed a little more stable overall while maintaining its incredible agility. It put a good bit more strain on the landing gear, but the plane survived all the bumpy landings unscathed. I fly over grass. I just wish it was not dark here now...

jatkiss

Any pictures from anyone yet ? How about a close up of the top control horns on the ailerons. I want to make sure what I am doing is right. They are sticking out QUITE a ways...so I think I am going to cut them back a bit. Also, do you just not clip the top wing rod into the control horn since there isn't a clip there ?

Thanks !!!

- Jeff

3DNobody

Will these help?

Keep in mind that I had to cut away the original aileron links (connecting the upper to the lower) b/c I had too much binding in them. You can see where they were in pics though along with the new ones made from servo horns and micro clevises.

Error401

3D! Woot. Had to register to post.

Just finished my Reflection, too bad it's dark now. I was so impressed with 3D's reflection last weekend that I ran to the LHS and got one myself. Someone posted that the Flatana was hohum compared to the Reflection, and I agree totally. My first foamie was a Flatana. It was ok, but I can't wait to fly the Reflection.

I have a couple of gripes with the build though. First is the horrid z-bends. Is it absolutely necessary to CA both ends? Or will the surface loadings make the rods shift in flight? I thought the force needed to "adjust" these during the setup exceeded the foam's strength at the surface. It would be very cool if one end could be left unglued until it was dialed in during test flights, then glued.

Second, the LG and rear wing braces can cause the TE's of the wings to be not parallel if extra care isn't taken. After following the instructions during the final assembly, I found out that the TE's on my wings were in fact not parallel. Tough lesson, but I learned from it (only the second bipe I've built). Anyway, in the book, it says to install the angled brace supports on one side and have them both to the front, then install the other braces on the other side of the fuse to the rear. Doesn't this put the wings in a slight bind? I did however notice that the interplane pieces caused the wings to have a horrible warp due to the misalignment and had to modify them slightly to get the AOA zeroed. Maybe it was just my inattention during the build, but the next one should go alot smoother now that I know what to look for.

As to the missing parts, I had to use some left overs from the U Can Do EP for a couple of the plastic pieces.

3DNobody

Error...good to see you here dude!

Error401 was the camera man for the vid I posted earlier. Looks like we will be having some formation flying in the ROA...

You gonna get that thing in the air tomorrow?

I think that if you flew around easy at first, and had no hard inputs, you might could get away with not gluing one end till it is trimmed. If one shifts during flight...you might have a handful. I had that happen once on another plane with ez links.

L8er

jatkiss

That is EXACTLY what I needed. This model has been a pain and I have made quite a few NEWB mistakes. Although I have had a great time building this one...I really think I am going to go get a second one at the LHS. The Z-Bends BLOW !!! I am going through this whole kit and completing it so I can learn from ALL the mistakes up front and then make the one I will fly.

Thanks so much for the pictures. I almost have this one completed. It's looking pretty beat up...but man has it been fun !! The next one will be soooooooooooo much better =- ).

- Jeff

GWinOKC

Its time for me to chime in on the build. I agree that there are many things that people would want to do differently on any build of any type aircraft. When designing the original i went thru a number of changes while learning some tricks with this plane... I have been building for about 35 years. When Great Planes engineers took this design and figured out how to mass produce it, they put their expertise into the pot, mixed it all up with their own personal preferences and you have what you got in the kit. 12 modelers would chose to build this plane 6 different ways so interpretation is the key. I agree that after the first build the second is always easier, this is true with any design type. My personal experience with building is that if I rush or "hurry" through a build, I rarely ever like the end result. The key to a good aircraft is keeping it as straight a possible. When building Sean's models I put everything in special jigs that i have built just for this model. I don't expect everyone to build jigs for one or two models but I built 54 of them last winter and they all flew almost identical. They gotta be straight... Sean won't fly ugly or crooked airplanes. Designing and developing this plane into a competition indoor foamy was a blast and i hope that everyone has as much fun with them as we have in OKC. Caution... after you get used to how this plane flies and all of the things it will do... it's hard to go back to a conventional non symmetrical aircraft.
Thanks, Greg

Error401

I totally agree. I am very excited about the design and look forward to flying it. I guess I'm new to foamies and have to relearn some building skills. I've been building planes for about 10 years, but foamies are very different from built up nitro planes.

3DNobody

Greg,

Thanks for posting here and for all the information that you guys have been giving. Some of the info here has really helped me understand what is truly important in setting up these foam planes. In return, the Refelction has been a great expereince for me so far. I think that Great Planes did a good job engineering these kits. Although some may be favored over others, they are all nice designs. I am impressed with the hinge system, and the fact that the plastic parts are universal to all the series. I know that when things get mass produced, sometimes compromise takes place...all I can say is that if the Reflection flys as well as it does, mass produced, I can only imagine how one of your jig built planes must fly when setup precisely. That is a complement to both Great Planes and you.


I will share a tip for folks that may help them build the kit a little more true...

This deviates from the manual, so take it for it is worth. The plans call for you to glue the top and bottom wing onto the fuse first, then put in the x-braces and lastly put in the interplane struts. I changed that order to what I think is more intuative to get all the alignment right.

First, I glued the bottom wing on, being careful that is was in perfect alignment with the fuse. Next, I glued on both interplane struts. These parts have a very precise fit and can serve to align the wing from top to bottom. Make sure that they are perpendicular to the bottom wing. After this, I made sure that the bottom wing was being held pefectly flat all the way across on a flat surface. I then glued on the top wing to the interplane struts and the top of the fuse. Double check that everything is square and make sure that the wing is fully seated onto the flat surfaces of the interplane struts and the fuse. Next, fit all the carbon x braces per the manual. BEFORE gluing them, turn the plane upside down on a flat surface. Make sure that the wing is held completely flat and that there is no stress on any of the carbon rod junctions. Again, check that everything is true. Glue the rods in place on the wings and make sure every thing is dry before you pick it up off the flat surface. Finally go back an glue any of the joints that you could not get to while the plan was on the table.

I was able to get the wing dead true by using this method. I had my suspicions about what could potentially happen if you strictly followed the manual and Error401 confirmed my theory when he built his by the book. (Error is a good builder IMO...so nobody assumes he is a hack) If you glue the top wing to the fuse first, any slight missalignment either fore, aft, or yaw in relation to the bottom wing, will cause problems for the rest of the steps. In order for everything else to fit together, something is going to end up warped slightly. By not locking in the wing to the top of the fuse first and using the interplane struts to align the upper and lower wings, it be comes pretty simple to get them right. I also think the model becomes easier to handle when building, rather than having two wings glued to the edge of 3mm foam.

OK...that is my $0.02 for the day...I hope that this is helpful for those that are building or have built this kit.

jatkiss

Well,

I finished the plane I do have another newb type question though. It's VERY nose heavy. But when I check the CG, it's spot on...I am assuming that this is not normal...am I correct in this ? I am going to attach a picture of what my plane (although it does look rough so please excuse my first build) looks like so ya'll can maybe offer any advice. You will note that I have a tool on the back of the tail to keep it on the ground.

- Jeff

Error401

Ok, test flights 1 and 2 are finished. All I can say is this: WOW.

The first test flight was interesting. After doing some trimming for slowish flight I started doing some vertical trimming. The verticals wanted to push over (up or down lines), and knife edge wanted to tuck to the belley. After landing I took another hard look at the droop on the ailerons and noticed that they were all a tad low (at about the same ammount). Fuming over the z bends I decided to try to remove the CA and readjust them, which I did with a little effort (the medium thickness CA is what I use). I readjusted the main servo to lower aileron links, ate dinner and headed back out. This time it was a whole different machine. The verticals were dead strait and it didn't exhibit funny speed dependant elevator trim changes. So, take extra care in setting up the aileron linkages.

I initially balanced mine at 1/4" behind the 2-3/4" initial CG. For some reason when it would slow down, the nose would come up. Taking a swag at it, I moved the 640 pack slightly forward (it was centered under the recommended CG). Test flying it again proved that my reflection flew more neutral without a tendancy to pitch up at lower speeds. I couldn't do an accurate CG placement in the field since there was a slight breeze, but I assume that it is somewhere between 2-3/4" and 3" from the top wing LE at the fuse.

This plane is sensitive to trim changes. I could see the effects of single rudder trim clicks in flight. Elevator was a tad less noticable, and the ailerons were about the same as the elevator.

The design is very rugged. On thress seperate charged packs I had soft cut offs after about 10 minutes of hovering and putting arround. Seemed normal at the time, but when I put them on charge at the house, each was fully charged in less than 15 minutes each. This was not normal. I had flown these packs on a Blade CP heli and a GP U Can Do 3D EP with similar flight times, but the charge times were on the order of about 1 hour each. The power system I have on my Reflection is a GP Rimfire with a GP BL-8 esc. These were donated from my E-Flight Yak 54, which had no problems. I don't know if it was a temp cutoff, or the pack voltage cutoff. I am running some pretty heavy surface throws drivin by HS-55 servos. I'm planning on putting my CC-25 esc on it in a few minutes.

One nice thing that would help folks build the flat outs would be a 90 degree triangle like the throw gages that were included in the kit. Just a thought. Anyway, this plane is a big hit with me.

Error401

Uh, the landing gear is supposed to be on the leading edge of the wing. Yours is on the trailing edge.

billaltman

My Feedback: (7)

Hey Jeff, I'm sure someone else noticed this or maybe you have already but the landing gear should be on the front cross members not the rear thats why its nose heavy. But i'm sure you have found this out already. We are flying with the battery pack around 1 inch behind the front cross members. Seems to fly great that way. Man I love this plane. Also 3Dnobody thats a great tip on building it true, thanks i'll do it on my next build. Good flying on the video. wait till you fly it inside "great fun". See ya Bill

jatkiss

Thanks for the notes guys. I will fix the landing gear tomorrow. Also thanks for being patient and answering the Newb questions. This has been a challenge for me. The LHS helpped me a ton today also with some CG and servo stuff. I already have the second kit just in case I made some drastic errors in this build and I loose it (which is...well it's probable)

Did you guys glue in your servos or did you tape them in ?

Also, I see that there are numerous times where double sided tape is required. What are ya'll usin ?

Thanks again for all your help. I think if I had to do it again I would have choosen another plane as my first build...but the lessons I am learning with this one should make me a MUCH better builder in the end. Still practicing in the simulator for my maiden...if all goes well I will be able to go out tomorrow. Have the batteries charged up and ready to go.

- Jeff