YNOT

If you are reading in the 3D thread, this effect YOU!

Maybe anti 3D rule is a little harsh, sorry.

AMA, in their 2004 Rules has a provision restricting one of our favorite tricks. The Tail Touch.


AMA safety code rule 9: "nor should any part of the model other than the landing gear, intentionally touch the ground, except while landing"


This has outlawed tail touching.

According to the AMA it is a safety issue. A quote from a repose letter from Dave Brown;


Hardly a new rule.....

The result of this, intentional, rudder touching is, often, a broken rudder, or, even more often, a broken rudder linkage.

Ever try to hover a model without a, working, rudder???? Do you think this is safe???

You end up with a bad set of choices........maintain hover, without adequate control......or accelerate into fwd flight, and chance rudder flutter taking the entire tail off.

Could you convince a jury that intentionally striking the rudder on the ground is reasonable conduct, in a trial involving the death of a person???

Dave Brown



I can understand the concern, however to use the same logic there would be a great need for additional restrictions:

1) No low passes. Slow or high speed.
2) No low inverted passes.
3) No Helicopters.
4) No nylon gear servos on planes over 10 pounds or speeds in excess of 75 MPH.
The list could go on.

The rule takes no consideration the pilots ability or the aircraft that are being used or an incident.

Ability: If you can hover a plane and touch the tail, chances are you are a well seasoned pilot. With piloting skills well above the norm.

Aircraft: High power to weight ratio to accelerate from a dead stop. Massive amount of control throw to control the plane at zero airspeed. And most planes I have seen performing these type maneuvers are equipment with the most up-to-date equipment available.

How many of you have seen big airplane go in because of flutter, crashed because the gear can't come down or just pilot error? I have seen incidents involving pylon, jets, big warbirds, trainers, combat, mid airs and just dumb thumbs at the field on a Sunday, however I have never heard of an incident where a 3D pilot had their plane doing a tail touch it injuring anyone.

This is not to be a Warbird Vs 3D flight. I like making inverted low passes with a big Mustang, too, however the chances of a incident are much higher with the low pass than an airplane standing on its tail at zero airspeed. Most of these planes can land and fly without a rudder or half an elevator.

Someone complained and now there is a rule. I for one, am going to complain back.

If you would like to see this rule revolked or overturned, please go here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save3D for additonal information.

PLEASE GO HERE http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save3D...ys?id=11390661 AND VOTE NO!

Should the tail touching 3D pilot be considerate to other pilots, absolutely! This would fall under a field or club rule, not an issue for the AMA to be involved in.

The "what if's" with beginners, older pilots, youger pilots, cheap equpment, fast warbirds, helicotpers, jets, combat and multiple aircraft in the air, far out-weigh the "what if's" of touching the tail.

Ian.W

even tho im not in the US, i will vote if i find out how

RC Havoc

My Feedback: (-1)

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Rudder_touch/m_1245929/tm.htm]Rudder Touch[/link]

Heres the other forum about this. Its not really ANIT-3D, but its there to protect people, witch is AMA's purpose. I dont really agree with it, simply because if a pilot choosed to put himself in danger, thats his/her choice and he/she should know the consiquences should they get hurt.

Abraxxas

I think 3D style is one of the safest (for those around you) forms of flying there is. 75% of the time when I fly 3D, at the highpoint of the manuever, the plane has little to no airspeed. Not going fast when I'm hovering, not when Im TR'ing... waterfall? harrier? pinwheel, flatspin, inverted flatspin, tailslide, rudder touch, falling leaf, etc, etc, etc... More often than not I am below stall speed and the only thing that will happen in the event of engine failure, dumb thumbs, or whatever... will most likely be my plane falling on its face from 20 ft. We've all spent far more time running out of the way of a "mixed up trainer" barreling towards the crowd at mach .9 than that Extra laying in the bushes 10ft off the runway because his counterbalance got caught in the weeds. Or the planes they have to clock with chronographs because radars dont go that high, vaporizing in a low inverted pass because there was .002" of play in the aileron ball link instead of .001". I think there are other, more dangerous issues that COULD (I'm not pressing for ANY new rules) be addressed before somebody makes a rule that says I cant touch my rudder in the grass.

RC Havoc

My Feedback: (-1)

That is GREAT!! I love it!

JBrannon

My Feedback: (3)

I am learning 3D and love it. However at our field the majority of pilots would like to see all hovering planes to crash and the pilots to go away. It becoming a park fliers field.

The most unsafe planes at our field are trainers, even on buddy boxes they crash in the pits. With the trainer and student looking at each other wondering why the other one didnt save the plane.

We have 1 or 2 people trying 3D too close to other pilots but for the most part we practice 3D when we are the only ones flying.

Which brings up another sore spot. We will wait an hour or so untill all the trainers and 60 size planes have flown in circles several times anmd landed in hopes of getting the same courtesy, but as soon as we start to hover they come right back out zooming back and forth over the runway. Even thought we let them have thier "fun" undistracted.

It appears the only way you will be able to learn and fly 3D is to be fortunate enough to own forty acres. It looks as though I will have to get a small 3d electric and fly in my front yard.

Joe

Abraxxas

Thanks RC

JBrannon : We got room for you over here!! WI is a bit of a drive though... Maybe I could just have all the great guys in our club donate a little courtesy each into a bag, mail it over to you and you can force feed it to those in your club who could use it most...

EXCAP232

My Feedback: (12)

If the intention is to get a safer environment to fly this kind of "rule" would fall hopelessly short of the goal. I have been in this hobby for many years and have seen many clubs (all AMA charters) have rules proposed with the same intention. The only thing that will work is to educate the members to learn to fly better. The most uncomfortable I have been in the last few years was observing a pilot (and club instructor) crash a giant scale DC-3 that had never flown anything like it before. He tried to glide the plane in at idle and did not know how to use the rudder or throttle! Ignorance is bliss and NO amunt of rules will change that fact. This is also the same kind of individual that wants a lot of rules since his own piloting skills are lacking.

As far as the safety of 3D pilots it is mandatory to be in complete control of the model at all times (tail touch or not) and if you don't then your career as a 3D pilot will be extremely short.

If the AMA would like to propose a good rule then they should consider limiting the time ANYONE can serve as AVP.

EXCAP232

EXCAP232

southern_touch9

My Feedback: (3)

I voted, have the rest of you?

3DRC

My Feedback: (3)

The wording is "intentional". When you are hovering just see how close you can get to the ground "without" touching it. That way if you touch the grass it will be without intent.

Remember this phrase:

"I was hovering a few inches off the ground when my plane confused my fingers and I almost lost it, but I was very lucky in saving it"

Just don't say "watch me touch the tail" instead say, "see how close I can get without touching"

Simple!

It is an assinine rule in the first place. It would make more sence to have a rule that said no flying in a cross wind. That certainly causes more problems.

Bean

Warren

My Feedback: (72)

All we need to do is extend the length of our tailwheels so it touches first....

Jim Flannigan

You are correct!!!!!

Mike_Mc

Who fickin' cares about the AMA. Clubs and the AMA give us one thing and one thing only we need to fly. A big place with a runway. For the most part 3D doesn't need any runway at all. I hate 3D (ok, not hate) but am thinking of learning for that single reason. If there's one thing I can't stand, that's being told what to do or not to do. You name one thing in California that doesn't have a f-ing fence around it for my own protection. 5% of the world's population in the US and 75% of the lawers... ***? Outlaw all the way baby and I'll be launching/catching with my teeth if I feel like it.

3DFanatic

My Feedback: (5)

No! Don't outlaw my 3 foot high inverted passes!!!

Here's an interesting occurance we can make a rule about:
A friend of mine was hovering his ZDZ80 powered H9 Sukhoi a while bac when one of the neighbor dogs ran out to the runway and took a jump at it. By all accounts the dog came about 2 feet from sinking her teeth into this poor guy's rudder. Hmmm, 40lb dog + 23lb airplane = more then the 50 lb thrust

New rule: No hovering low enough so that dogs can eat your airplanes.

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

yeah, the AMA is full of it, have you guys ever looked at all of the rules to fly a turbine. And you can only have a hand selected few of "turbine CD's" sign you off for a turbine waiver that's required to fly a turbine aircraft at an AMA field.

One simply way to get around this new rule is to dig out little areas and fill them with water at the field, the rule doesn't say you can't dip your tail in the water.

Personally I hope the AMA keeps comming up with these silly rules, people will not put forth an effort to make the much needed drastic changes unless enough people get really pissed off.

kunte

O>K if were serious, lets ban learners cos they cant fly, all models must be started using a robot as starting causes most accidents. Thirdly lets ban all flyers over 60 cos they can't see and can't react quickly enough to be considered safe. Fourthley let's stop all this bullxxxx that comes from people in power, too much power, THOSE THAT CAN DO THOSE THAT CAN'T TAKE THEIR BALL INSIDE, LATER THEY P<SS ON THE GRASS AND NICK THE GOALPOSTS COS IF THEY CAN'T DO IT THEY DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE TOO !!! inferior complexes make rules....

lucas-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Wow rally the troops, 1. ban learners cos they can fly 2 Who frickin care 3 they can,t fly anyway
Those are all great points, but don,t think any of them will help your cause.
There just was a young man got killed in Texas, throat cut by the blade.
Oh Im sure, you will have replies about this, why don,t you just send them to his parents.
Ya rules suck, but we learn to live with them.
Rudder touch the ground is not bad, Rudder touching hand, in flight makes as much sense as 1,2,3.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

heres a pic of my Bug after it lost it's rudder in flight ( not hanging ) but it landed as if nothing had happened.
i've also seen a trainer land totaly finless after hitting a power line, had to keep the speed up but was ok, a Mustang land after a inverted pass wiped the rudder off, and we've all seen Magics fins let go and land.
i did loosen my Cougars elevator once on a hard tail touch, but i simply dropped the power and landed a few feet in front of where i was hanging.

flutter is a non-issue if you loose a link in the hang on the rudder, we fly so slow you don't get flutter!
what about using servo savers from RC cars? as we dont fly fast they wont flutter, but will bend if you put too much pressure on the surface.


how long until the AMA releases a one make plane you all have to fly, the AMA radio gear, fuel, engine, AMA rubber foam prop taken from a childs fan, and you will have a "watcher" in jack boots and whip at every field ready to punish any deviation from the 500x100' left hand circuit pattern


i still say ban the newbees and old guys..
i've avoided about 3 trainers, one while trying to fly, and about 4-5 old guys loosing conectraction and crashing near me.

augiep38

My Feedback: (3)

Glad my post was deleted.

It is my perception that the AMA as an organization that is out of touch with current trends. It seems to me that everything I am for, they are against.

I keep hearing everyone whine about it, but did you look at the last voter turnout?

We all need to vote these old guys out or break off and start new. I saw a post stating half of the EC was on oxygen tanks. If that is the case, I say "Thanks for your service gentlemen, but its time to let go and allow some new blood in."

Todd

2fast4u

My Feedback: (5)

As a CD, I think we could safely say the biggest push would be in the direction of gatherings (i.e. events or fun flys). When we are at the field, for the most part, there are not that many people there, and we all know how to stand back and stay out of the way. But when there are spectators there, many many clubs allow spectators to walk all over the place, the pits, the flight line, everywhere!!! It's nuts but true. I'm sure the AMA is doing a "CYA" move, but they have to do something to try to protect themselfs.

We will continue to tail tap, but not when we have events!! Period.

MarkNovack

My Feedback: (3)

Out of curiosity...is this really an issue. What I mean is that if you are out flying on a nice day and you stop for a hover, tap the tail on the ground and move along, is this really an issue. Are pilots getting warning letters and threats to be kicked out of clubs over this issue? That might be worth a legal inquiry into things, but unless it is really an issue (did everyone here obey the 55mph speed limit for thirty years or did we push 5 or 10 or better) then it's another idiotic stupid rule in the Average Modelers Association book.

That said, I think the arguments about the unsafeness of this practice are unfounded. Considering the apparent skill level of most pilots capable of getting the tail near the ground, this act is much safer, than say, handing the transmitter to a student helicopter pilot (I do not wish to sound harsh or cold in this comparison in light of the recent tradgedy in Texas, but it seems to be a statiscal fact that extreme stunts performed by skilled pilots is not what causes these tradgedies and no, this hobby is no more going to be outlawed than recreational skydiving). In my opinion, with this rule (if it is indeed intended to stop tail touching) they have closed the door of a barn that had no horse inside in the first place.

And with that, I now remember that I live in Belgium where people can fly circles or hover over the runway or touch tails or set up limbos or do balloon breaking, and do it all with the cooperation of their fellow pilots and have a great time everyday with no AMA interference or moronic safety officer with a swollen head who actually thinks that the word "officer" is an operative in the assesment of their perceived authority ;-)!!!

All Thumbs

I believe the AMA has oversimplified the tail touching issue. It's one of pilot responsibility and knowing your ability. I agree with the opinion that most pilots that are tail touching are highly skilled and undoubtably the safest pilots at the field. You should KNOW if you're cabable of doing any manuver safely or not and that is the real problem, not outlawing a single trick just because an incompetent pilot can get in a lot of trouble doing it. I'm new to 3D so I won't be touching down like this anytime soon. My hovering practice is up at a high altitude. You just have to use your head. Rules are needed (not this one) but you're never going to completely be able to protect yourself from idiots. I've seen a number of people that have no business flying straight and level. All of the safety issues are based on pilot ability. I agree that this should be at the club level and not a blanket policy. If you're at the field with a few buddies, this manuver would be great. If it's a company picnic with kids running around, then using your head says you'll avoid certain things. Still, a pilot of extreme abiltiy and experience could pull it off safely with good planning. I'm not a member of yahoo (and don't want to be) so I'm voicing my "NO" vote here. The Dave Brown arguments sound pretty vague to me, not particulary based on any facts or research. Does he fly 3D at all? Was that rule created with the input of someone who knows the feel and control of such a manuver?

southern_touch9

My Feedback: (3)

I say the AMA tries to enforce far too many things. The sad part is that many of the big events are AMA sanctioned. I say we push for a different kind of insurance to be allowed at these events or come up with our own events and let the AMA govern who ever they have left.

I wonder what the AMA thinks about guys like the flying cirkus group who have been known to seemingly attempt tail touches on top of other people?

lucas-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

We have seen planes go out of control, that got hit,bad equiment, for what ever reason, the end results was a crash.
We have seen 40% plane crash while hovering. We have seen plan crash with all skill levels flying them. Not just 3D Pilots I might add.
The severity of the crash seems to be worse the higher up the plane is, if by some chance the plane hit somone it could be bad we live with that I hope we all can agree on that.
Now a 32-10 prop swing on DA150 in a hover over your head or someone elses, gets hit, I don,t care if you think your the best the South has to offer, somone is going to get hurt, You canot control all the elements.
Do you all think Dave Brown woke up one day and decide to make a rule change.
I don,t agree if someone wants to touch his tail on the ground away from himself and others go for it
The woo effect is cool, but at what expense?

BocaBen

Well, I am a 3D pilot and I enjoy doing tail touches BUT...
- I have 25 years of experience in the hobby
- I did a lot of aerobatic competition to strenghten my skills
- I practiced plently on the simulator before trying it for real
- I only do with with nobody around, with no other pilots on the flight line
- I only do it with my Flip 3D and electric 3DX, not the 33% Extra with 100cc engine
- I only do it when the weather is right (low wind,...)
- I only do it at a safe distance from me (have to work on that one though!)
- I try to plan the flop recovery (hit harder than it should, starting going flat, full throttle to get out) away from me
- I only do it a couple time because after a while, my attention is going down as well as my reflexes.
- I do it for me, not for the spectator and to show off
- I THINK that I know what I'm doing, but in reality, sometimes... I don't for a fraction of a second

Bottom line, you are playing close to a line and that's the fun.
You go under that line and hurt your plane or yourself, that's your problem
You go under that line and hurt someone else, that's NOT acceptable.

Can you expect all 3D-to-be pilots to be reasonable? Certainly not
With all the successes of low cost 3D ARF recently that can end up in anybody's hand in a field near you, I can't honestly blame the AMA for trying to prevent people's own stupidity.
Just my $0.02

Ben