OK, so I take a different route home from work today and check out a new (to me) field where the bigger planes are known to fly. Bingo, there's a 33% Composite ARF Extra getting put together, with a DA100. The biggest plane I have seen in person so far. Sweet, I'm ready to see some acrobatics!

So the guy gets it put together and in the air. Now I'm assuming this must be pattern flying he's doing. Down the field, upline, stall turn, back inverted over the field, consecutive loops and so on.

It was like watching paint dry! I know it must be tough for the pilot to have 3 consecutive rolls at exactly the same blah blah with no wind deviation blah blah but who cares. I don't think he got lower than 150 feet, just back and forth, back and forth. And he must be a competitor, his T-shirt said so.

At least this confirmed for me that 3-D is what I want to do. I got bored and left after about 5 minutes.

To each his own of course.. (yawn)

I think you'll find after flying 3D and mastering it or getting it down where its second hand that flying pattern is a fresh change. It's IMO twice as hard as just throwing the sticks and making a clean 3D manuever.

Maybe. But I doubt pattern flying gets the pulse rate up like good old down low past your limits 3D, does it?

A challenging Unknown in a close contest gets my heart pumping like no other. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

This is an old argument but again.

1st off pulse rate, yeah,,,, it will get up there before you ever take off at a contest. I said mine would not and I was wrong. Common things people talk about.. Thumbs shaking on the sticks, rapid pulse, sweating hands. Trust me as you advance above the bottom level the manuevers are difficult enough that if you do not pay attention your $1500 pattern plane will be firewood...quick. These are not old geezers, well not all of them, many many are guys in there teens, 20's and 30's, the pressure of getting scored down due to a VERY small flaw that most wouldnt notice is,,, intimidating is putting it mildly... honestly.. Most of the younger guys are guys who 3D ok, but want to learn how to REALLY fly with skill.

Pattern may look boring(but NOT easy), and it is sometimes boring for me, (Im a beginner to pattern) just due to the sheer repetitiveness of it. But Jason Schulman, Chip Hyde, Quique and the rest of the superstar 3D pilots ALL cut their teeth on pattern (AND STILL FLY PATTERN) WAY before there was 3D, so its good enough for me. Ask them whats the chicken and whats the egg, they will tell you I promise.
I fly both and believe me pattern done WELL is a prerequisite to being a good 3D'er. You may think you are pretty good, but go try to fly the intermediate pattern sequence in IMAC or AMA pattern with any level of precision at all and you will find out real quick how unpolished your skills are.

Dont get me wrong 3Ding well is TOUGH, but most anyone with decent flying skills can do a decent harrier, elevator or blender with a few practice sessions. It will take months to even be relatively competitive in pattern for even a good RC pilot.

Yup it is boring sometimes, but if you are really serious about wanting to be the best pilot you can be, it would serve you well to make learning pattern skills a part of your regimen.

Try this, its only a taste
1.takeoff and climb out EASY, real easy to about 75'. No yanking the throttle around.
2. Make a smooth 90 deg bank away from the runway and then at the right distance make a smooth level 270 degree bank all the while maintaining altitude and smooth curves and straight lines so that you endup going downwind parallel to the runway about 100'out from the runway and 75' high.
3. Do a 1/2 reverse cuban 8, do it right now, no egg shapes and no wing checks, and come out 75' high on a 180deg opposite heading(downwind) 100' out from the runway.
4. As you pass in front of yourself dont climb or dive or show and rock in the wings, period.
5. Then at the upwind end of the field smoothly pull to vertical, and do a proper stall turn with no visible corrections.
6. As you descend and exit the stall turn pull to level flight on the same radius as you entered the maneuver and at that same 75' elevation.

Try it just for fun, I betcha you cannot fly in a straight line up and down the field and perform those very simple maneuvers mantaining a constant distance from the runway, straight lines, symmetrical curves(radii) and level wings.. I dare ya.. itll be fun

BTW... If you do give it a go let us know how it comes out.

Pat special attention to level flight, banking corrections only with rudder to correct your line parallel to the runway, and no visible over/underrotations during the rolling portions of maneuvers. You should it right on the mark, its a downgrade for every 15degrees you have to roll correct to get back to wings level.

BTW BTW,,,
A proper stall turn(hammerhead) is a straight vertical line up AND down and, the stall turn itself has to be tight, radius of the turn can only be 1/2 of the wingspan, no big wingovers. The plane should stop and basically pivot straight back to nose down with the tip of the tail as the pivot point. Theres more to it but thats the basic idea of a proper stall turn..

Well then, I recommend you try it and THEN come back and tell us how bored you were. EXAMPLE: Try to do one slow roll the length of the runway without losing or gaining any altitude. I have been flying for about 15 years and I still cannot do it. I am not IMAC nor a pattern flyer but you can only fly circles and do touch and goes so many times. After a few flat spins, blenders, etc..... you get the same feeling. After a number of years in the hobby, you start to look for the new challenges. I have seen many, many new pilots come to the field-- learn to solo-- move up to a low wing aerobat-- get bored and quit the hobby because it is no longer fun or EXCITING. It is no secret why. They think they have done it all and there is nothing left to accomplish. In the World Championships for full scale pilots it is the precision that makes the bulk of the score--- the freestyle does not score high in the determination of who is the best pilot.

Doing this pattern stuff will improve your flying no end. Just think about presentation within the 3d game. You will tidy it up so much.
You will be surprised at the amount of people that can prop hang, blender, flatspin etc etc, yet can't do a circuit without gaining losing height, with identical legs.
I still think the pattern guys are incredible.
One chap up club went from pattern to 3d, and he is amazing at it, even though there are guys there can do the manouevers better than him, he looks good doing it, because between moves, he's flying so precise. His harrier circuits, look like circuits, and not a plane flying around doing a harrier. His low rolls are amazing, he comes down the runway, rolls left, and his wing is about 10inches of the ground. holds it there, then on to his back, then the same with the other wing and finishes it off with a climbing snap. Amazing,
Don't dish um till you ttried it.
I'm with Bigned on this!!!!!!

slagburn - I bet you thought you were safe, posting that in a 3D forum

You guys are making pattern look so good that I grabbed a GP Venus ARF to start honing my skillz

Pattern is almost always boring for the spectator. As for what you were watching, that sounds like the novice pattern, quite boring to watch. But, like everyone else has said, give it a try. That is what sinks the hook. Pulse rate? Yep, it is there. I know one pilot, very nice guy and a solid sport flyer, that tried F3A one season and quite because it so rattled his nervous system. Me, I am normally as calm as a Hindu cow, but my at last contest, flying a borrowed airplane, the F program had me sweaty and shaky and flying the opposite direction for the 3-roll circles with opposite rolls.

I find it the same with any competitive sport. Watching from the sidelines is a sleeper. Doing is where the fun is. Once you know what is happening, though, it does become more fun to watch.

Mark

Is there a good site that describes some F3A routines and how the maneuvers are judged? I'd like to start practicing when I get my Venus setup.

Venus 40 can prophang btw

ptarp, http://www.gbrcaa.org/ has some good descriptions of the manouvers

I've said my piece on this in other threads in other areas, but it still amazes me when someone *yawns* at pattern but has never tried it. Perhaps it's because pattern doesn't get the glossy cover shots of the mags like the hovering extras, or that you hardly ever read a report about a pattern contest anymore. When's the last time you saw a construction article on a pattern plane?

The fun of pattern is not only in the doing, but in actual competition. I don't care how good you think you are, go enter one competition and see if you feel like you're watching paint dry. See if your hands don't shake. Let's see if you yawn. But better yet, let's see your scores

Sportsman is either hit or miss in the US...either there will be a ringer there, or everyone will suck. So if you want a challenge, step on up to intermediate. And get ready for the most humbling experience of your life, if you aren't WELL practiced. But of course by teh time you ARE well practiced, you wouldn't be saying how it was boring.....you'd simply understand why we do it. And watch how much better all teh rest of your flying becomes almost immediately when you begin paying attention to details most people don't even notice.

-Mike

Stop talking about this, you guys are making me anticipate the arrival of my Venus way too much I'm tempted to drive down to the Chanpaign, IL Tower wharehouse and get it myself!

foofydoo - Thanks for the link, I'm studying the sequences now.

Something else,
If at all possible be sure and hookup with a more experienced pattern guy. They will save you a lot of time learing to UNDO bad habits learned on your own. There is a method to the madness in pattern and if you truly understand how the maneuvers are intended to be flown it makes it a whole lot easier. I have seen guys at contest, including myself, get really pissed at their scores because they thought they were performing a maneuver correctly only to find there scores were not so good,,,, but easily correctible with a few minor adjustments to the throttle and surface control techniques you were using.
Pattern is NOT supposed to be subjective, there are precise and stringent rules about HOW to fly maneuvers. If you know the rules and the judges know the rules its a very predictable sport.

Find out where the next pattern judging clinic is in your area and go, it will really help you out bigtime and you can become a certified judge even though you probably wont be asked to judge until you prove yourself proficient at at least the intermediate level. But the knowledge gained at the clinic will probably immediately double your understanding of what is expected when you fly.

BTW, if you are an AMA member call them up and ask for a free AMA rulebook. It has everything you need to know about the sequence and geometry requirements of all the maneuvers.
Not only for pattern , but also for combat, pylon, control line, scale and every other discipline AMA sanctions competition for.

ALSO, the biggest governing entity for pattern is www.NSRCA.org (National Society Radio Controlled Aerobatics)[8D]

3D definately is the crowd pleaser but only a trained eye can spot the difference between good 3D and sloppy 3D.
IMAC / Pattern may have less wow factor but IMO is much harder to do well.


The guys who do both will be noticeably better with any plane they have in their hands.

I got a guy in my club, who has been flying pattern in the 70's and he comes back again to the hobby and he still flies so precise. Right now he tries to 3d and he is much better than others.
I have seen him teaching others flying and after some time they were really good!! He told them how to train loops,rolls etc., so that they can make them precise.

AND

If you hookup with a really good pilot you will learn that you cant compete if you dont REALLY know how to trim a plane. You can buy the most expensive pattern plane in the world and if it isnt trimmed out right you are going to have a tough time being competitive. I dont care who you are.

Good pilots can fly most any plane,, but can only fly a plane as well as it is trimmed out.

You will quickly see how big of a difference 1/2degree makes when you start trying to perfect a pattern plane and trim out all the bad tendencies. Its a CONTINUOUS never ending effort.

wgeffon - Are you from olney, IL? I think we met at last year's Posey county fly-in.

Not from Olney but I was there that day.

Remind me what you were flying?

I only brought my Avistar trainer, I was with my dad also.

I like this thread! I love 3D and I have to say that 3D is what got me back in the hobby after several years off. But I still enjoy seeing and flying an aerobatic plane like an airplane (and yes I know the full scale guys are doing a lot of 3D moves now). The fun thing about pattern and 3D is that you will never do them perfect and there is always something new to learn. It's fun to go up and fly and have so much stuff that you'd like to practice that you can't get it all in with one tank!

Struck a nerve huh!
Maybe there is more to flying pattern than watching it. I like seeing planes do unairplanelike stuff and am still having quite a challenge with making it happen.
So at what level are people getting bored with 3D? Rolling harrier waterfall circles?

When you realize there's no rhyme or reason to it and it doesn't look "polished". When you realize you're just goofing off, and not really getting any better. It will come one day. It did for me and every other pattern flyer I've ever met. Ever seen a pattern pilot 3D? They're usually the best of the best, with only a few notable exceptions. Chip Hyde? Pattern. Quique? Pattern. Jason? Pattern. CPLR? Pattern. Ya know Chris Hinson, owner of Extreme Flight? Guess what....ex pattern flyer. Don Lowe, whom the Masters was named after? Pattern. Almost every participant of the TOC, and ALL of the TOC contestants before a few years ago? Pattern.

Get the picture? Pattern teaches you how to control your plane, not just yank it around and do funny looking stuff. You can always tell a pattern pilot 3Ding vs the average guy. The pattern pilot looks smooth and the old guys usually don't get nervous. The other guys......well.......heh. Let's just say some need to learn the basics of correcting for a crosswind before hovering overt he runway.

-Mike

I just reread the previous thread so Im editing this but hes saying almost the exact thing..


Theres a difference between being bored as a pilot and as a spectator. [8D]

I think the point the guys who have experienced pattern are making is that pattern is unique in what it provides. It allows you as a pilot to know you airplane better. The act of learning how to fly with precision is the cornerstone of learning how to put the plane exactly where you want it, when you want it there.

3D teaches a lot of skills, but the fun factor and thrill factor are a lot higher at a lower skill level with 3D. Some, not all, well probably most guys who have only really tried to learn 3D are more visually satisfied with their flying before they are really the master of their airplane.

If you want to see an example of what I mean watch Chip fly PERFECT figure 8 torqure rolls, or Jason S do that thing where he pogos the plane straight up and down about 100' in a hover..

or to me what is the ultimate....
I once saw this guy Todd Blaus from Waco, Tx who is a top pattern flyer and TOC competitor do a PERFECT single roll rolling circle with a PERFECT KE to KE snap on all of the 1/8ths of the circle! He never wabbled, never lost or gained altitude, his circle looked perfectly round and the snaps were perfect starting and ending with the wings perfectly perpendicular to the ground.

Only years of practice putting the plane in a specific place in space at a specific attitude and at a specific time can give you those kind of skills, and that is pattern babe...

That is unless you are a prodigy like Mark Leesburg.. I dont know if he flies pattern but he is a STUD with complete command of his airplane...