I've been trying to 3D and do all the really cool aerobatic moves for about 5 yrs. In a nut shell--I suck compared to most of you guys. I never could get the rudder timing down for the cool rolling harriers or the low n slow roll that requires opposite rudder during the time when the belly is pointing towards me.

My friend threw me a pearl on Tuesday night. He just saved me $10,000 worth of crashed airplanes and 2 yrs of suffering.

Top wing Back. Bottom wing Forward.

That mean anything to any of you fellas?

Congratulations! If I'm not miskaten, you'd just Harrier'd a bipe! Awesome Man!

Hey.... just the same as a knife...... only alot more of them and alot faster

thanks, now i can scare myself some more..... it just might help because i was like you.... almost gave up on the rolling thingys

i dont think its a knife, he mentioned two wings!!

Check it out. I've been practicing on the simulator.

HUH? i took it to be one wing, when your looking at the top as your rolling you should be giving right rudder and the bottom of the wing, as your rolling you should be giving left rudder....hence "top wing back" (towards rear of plane) and "bottom wing forward" (toward front of plane)

those are the cues I use my self for knife edge flight. With the canopy facing me during knife edge, the bottom wing will follow the rudder stick. When belly is facing you, the top wing will follow the rudder stick.

I set out this past summer to get the rudder down pat, and while I have it down really good, I haven't mastered it. Nice smooth slow rolls from horizon to horizon are a favorite of mine. As are 4 point rolls. When I had my wildhare 1/4 edge with a 40cc in it, I would take off and as soon as my wheels left the ground I would start a slow roll to inverted followed up by a hard push to the moon.

Sean

Top wing and bottom wing. When your in a knife edge. Ifixairplanes and gjeffers got it.

Look at my pics.

harriers are more fun and better, hence two wings with bipe see i can be right also!!

I didn't get a chance to try it at the field but was just on the sim. It works great. I've been fighting rollers. KE I could kind of visualize in my head but it is slower than top wing back. Rollers were killing me. I think I will make some head way on them now.

It's kind of like "Stick to the wing that's down" when flying at you.

Thanks

David

I've been running my simm on overtime for the last couple days.

It does work. I'm doing rolling knife edge passes. Top wing-- use rudder stick to pull it back. Bottom wing-- use rudder stick to push it forward.

I'm flying the stock Extra 330L in AFPD. It's orange with white stripes and a white tail. It really performas great. I'm using throttle and rudder to work the plane around in knife edge circles down low and slow. If it falls--add power or more rudder. If it climbs too much--just back off on the throttle or the rudder a bit.

I'm doing knife edge passes, but flipping from top of the plane to bottom. I'll come in from right to left. Top of the plane in knife edge. 1/2 aileron roll to the left and now I'm doing knife edge but it's the bottom. Now a right aileron roll and it's back to the top. Left aileron roll again and back to the bottom. I keep doing that for as long as I can see the plane and try to maintain about 10' elevation off the deck.

I'm also doing that in circles. Knife edge circles, but flipping the ailerons to make the plane roll in and out.

Everytime you roll from the top to the belly--your rudder inputs change. Top of the plane--top wing back. Bottom of the plane--bottom wing forward.

I'm practicing inverted flight using rudder only to strear it. I'm flying around inverted about 10' off the deck. Use rudder to fly figure 8's coming in and out from yourself.

I'm doing LOW and SLOW knife edge passes using only throttle and rudder to control my altitude. I'm doing consistant low passes with the wingtips just inches off the deck.

This is the best teaching advice I've ever been given. It gives me total control of the rudder. Getting familiar with rudder control in ANY attitude or heading is crucial to doing these 3D moves. I am going to keep burning up my sim untill I can do it automatically. Once this becomes an automatic response--I'll be 10 times better than I used to be.

Interesting, but I dont have time to think about stuff like that....just fly it.

RCPilet...

I'm not quite follwong you on the process... Maybe I'm missing the instruction...

What if the plane is going from right to left...

Doesn't matter. Left to right. Right to left.

Try it on your sim.

If your looking at the TOP of the plane--then you fly the wing on top. Push the rudder stick to push the top wing back and it keeps the nose up.

If your looking at the BOTTOM of the plane--then you fly the bottom wing. Push the rudder stick to move the bottom wing forward.

If your looking at the top wing--Top wing back
If your looking at the bottom wing--Bottom wing forward


When your doing low n slow rollers on the deck, it's very easy to get confused with the rudder and crash the plane. There is no room for error when the wingtips are 12" off the deck. You put in the right rudder corrections, or the plane is dead.

So, you break the plane up into top and bottom.

When you see the top of the plane--then you fly the TOP wing panel. Your looking at the TOP of the TOP wing . Move your rudder stick to bring that top wing to the back of the plane. Top wing back. This keeps the nose up.

When you see the bottom of the plane--then you fly the BOTTOM wing panel. Your looking at the BOTTOM of the BOTTOM wing. Fly the bottom wing. Move your rudder stick so that it causes the bottom wing to move forward. Moving the bottom wing forward keeps the nose up. Push the rudder stick "forward" to move the bottom wing forward. Whichever way the wing is moving--you need to push it forward to keep the nose up. So--you push the rudder stick in that direction.

My problem, and a lot of other guys problem--is we're not as good as you.

So, this is a way to train your thumbs and brain to make the right corrections at the right time.

I have been doing the same thing in AFPD. The Extras are my choice for this training also. I have been doing low knife edge passes, snaps from KE to KE. Easy to know the control needed when the snap stops. Top wing back.......

The rollers are starting to feel good. I am going to take my UCD out tomorrow and try some rollers on it. The KE on the UCD is not too pretty. I'll be trying them anyway though.

Anly about a week or two until the SuperStar is done. It is similar to the Extras.

I starting to like the Extra300S with the black front end and the checkboards on the wingtips.

I WAS flying the 330L with orange and white struipes. Solid white tail. But, it has coupling in the elevator during knife edge.

The 300S has almost 0 coupling. You just put it on it's side and give it rudder. It goes pretty straight. I'm only using elevator to make turns and minor corrections. Not like the 330L where it took constant elevator input to keep the plane going in a straight line.

I'm getting better at it by the hour. I'm going to keep practicing this until it becomes automatic. Then I'll take out one of my big birds and give it a try for real. I'm sure I'll come home exhausted from the stress, but it's gonna be fun. [8D]

RCPilet, that is the same key that I use.. Dont let the cute remarks get to you. Everyone has something they are looking at to key them on different things. Once I figured that out it was a major epiphany for me too. That is when I really got cranked up on doing integrated rolling circles and loops and stuff. It works exactly like you describe. It does not matter what direction the airplane is traveling, left to right or right to left. If the canopy is facing you, you use the rudder to push the top wingtip back to lift the nose (as if your thumb was actually on the top wingtip), if the belly is facing you you push the bottom wingtip forward to lift the nose(as if your thumb was actually on the bottom wingtip). Its a great visual association to help get things going.

Here is another one. When the plane is inverted steer with the inboard wingtip(the one closest to you.) Just as in knife edge, when inverted you imagine your thumb is on the inboard wingtip and you move your rudder stick thumb the direction you want the wingtip to go. This is easiest to learn in a loop. Just start doing large controlled loops. Use the ailerons to maintain wings level (ONLY) use the rudder to maintain heading. As the plane passes 9/3 o clock and starts to enter inverted you steer the inboard wingtip. As it comes upright you just work the rudder normally.

As bdavidson said.. once you have done this enough the achieve muscle memory you will not even think about it anymore.. Working the rudder in any position becomes a seamless action that you do without thought.

I know a lot of people dont like visual keys,, but they have been VERY helpful in learning to have total control for sequence flying and freestyle stuff.

Dont sweat it. Those rolling maneuvers will feel much the same when you transition to your real plane if it is well setup.

The 3D (stalled) stuff feels a little different and its a little harder to transition from the sim to the real thing but its a heackuva lot easier than learning it with a real plane.

I wasn't giving him a hard time... I just couldn't wrap my mind around the explaination... Maybe in practice it's easier to grasp... btu I found myself THINKING way too much to figure out what direction the rudder stick went in realtion to the wehich wing and which idrection

Was trying ot figre out how the to of the wing vs bottom of the wing view helped in determining which rudder to apply...

And it seemed more thinking required to work it out...

1) Which side of the plane am I looking at
2) Which wing should I fly
3) What direction does that wing need to go
4) What dorection rudder input will do that


Wouldn't a more simplistic way of stating this be:


When looking at the top of the plane, the rudder stick goes opposite the direction of plane's travel "PULL the stick away from the direction of travel"

When looking at the bottom of the wing the rudder stick goes the same direction of plane's travel "PUSH the stick the same direction of travel"


Then you only have two questions:

1) What side of the plane am I looking at
2)Which direction rudder do I input


What do you guys think?

I know, I was actually yanking at bdavidsons chain a little for the "I dont think about it" comment. But just goofing, not serious..



I think this is one of the most practical threads we have had here in a while. Orientation is an important fundamental building block!


I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head Maudib,,, its whatever you can "wrap YOUR mind around", I reckon that it depends on how you are wired up or something?

The thought process that rcpilet mentioned above is what seemed intuitive to me. Actually, although I am sure I am not the one that thought it up, I figured out the same technique rcpilet is using one day while I was flying knife edge circles practicing this very orientation thing. All of the sudden I just "saw it" and it made sense. It sortof gave me the exact feeling of rcpilets title for this thread. LIGHT BULB!

The inverted technique was taught to me by my pattern "coach".

I think your thought line makes sense as well but I find myself thinking about it when I am actually doing it[8D]. The funny thing is that when I try it and start thinking about it my mind keeps switching back and forth between the way I figured it out and the way you suggested which in time the switching back and forth could cuase one to go insane. hehehe...

Actually, and I am sure this is true for you too, I dont think about knife edge flight anymore.. I just do it. That visual reference got me going and then muscle memory tok over.

Anyone struggle with orientation for hovering and torque rolling? That was extremly hard to overcome. It also directly relates to rudder corrections when the belly is in while you are in a vertical climb or dive.

I think a lot of people are wired so that opposite is something that can mess them up.

It took me a few times to read and understand what u was saying but that makes total sense. I never thought about that before. Looking at it that way makes one less thing to think since it is such an easy idea. I seen the light!

Mike East pretty much described my thinking on this:

LIGHT BULB
EPIPHANY

You ever looked at something and couldn't figure out how it worked? You ever looked at another guy flying and couldn't understand why he was so good? Then asked yourself. "What is he doing thats makes it so easy? I should be able to do it, but I'm all thumbs. And it's gotta be somethig SIMPLE."

Well, this was it for me. My flying just improved like 10 fold.

Practice it on your simulator. [sm=idea.gif] In less than 5 minutes, you'll be as excited as I am.