I have one question i hope someone can help me with. I can't seem to make it hang on the prop, all it want's to do is climb (yes to much throttle) or it wants to fall off and it's very unstable, can't seem to find that inbetween sweet spot. My question is, would it be better to have it more tale heavy to hover? running a JBA 91 w/zinger 14x6 prop @10500 rpm. On a Phoenix extra 330s.

You could ease the CG back. You might also try a 15x4W APC prop. It will give you a little more wash over the tail. Also realize it is very hard to hover some planes. I have not flown the one you have but I have some that take almost no effort and some I have to fight all the time.
David

Everything David said

Plus

"Practice, Practice, Practice"

Which way does it fall off? - in yaw (rudder corrections required) or pitch (Elevator correction required).

Does it Harrier well but not go into a true vertical hover?

If you have a computer radio you can play around with the throttle curve.

But it is practice practice and more practice.

Hi Kiddo:

If I can learn to hover and do rolling circles at 73, you sure as heck can. Do you have a simulator? If so work with it until you can keep it nose up for 60 seconds or so. Be sure your surfaces move at least to the minimum recommendations, usually 45%. You should be able to pull the bird up from knife edge flight into a hover. If you cant get into a hover attitude from say 45% from the horizontal, your CG is too far foreard or your rudder movement is inadequate, or not strong enough servo wise, or all of those. Could also be a poor 3D bird. If other guys at the field can hover this bird, you need to work on the airframe and practice, practice, practice. Get a little help from the club 3D hot dog and let him fly your plane. At this stage for me, if a plane can not do knife edge loops, its just worth my time. Foamys are not a bad learning tool, in fact you may find you taking them out to the field rather than the standard glow or gass. The Airfoilz edge 540 or Tribute 3D will almost hover themselves when set up correctly, and they are easy to set up. I find myself sticking two or three electrics in the back of the wagon rather than carting out the big heavy gasser or glow birds. More fun to fly, fly better and as long and around $70.00 rather than $700. if my thumbs have a attack of stupid. ENJOY

I do not have a simulator, and all the guy's at my field have what i call, THE BIG STUFF, you know 540's with 10 hp hanging on the front, they say the same thing, practice. I do think it is a little to much nose heavy, since hurricane IKE is coming through this weekend i want get a chance to test out moving the c.g. back. as for the rudder servo, i am using a futaba s148, it so far seems to be doing the trick, I think!! What servo would you guy's recommend on this plane? All the other servos on the plane are s3004. My radio is a simple futaba sky sport 6 channel w/dual rates. I have all the surfaces set by the book. elevator and rudder at 70mm for max and the ailerons at 40mm is the max on high rate. I will keep you guy's posted on the results of moving the c.g. but it may be next weekend because of ike.

Thanks for everyone's advice.
Jay Martin

Jay, you need more rudder servo. The servo you are using is not strong or fast enough to get the job done. I have been using a lot of Futaba 3305s. These are metal gear 99oz servos. Tower has them for $35. There are better servos out there but these are hard to beat for the money. You could also go to a 6V battery pack. This will make your servos faster and stronger on all surfaces. While the servos you have will fly the plane. They are not really up to the task of 3D flying
If one of these guys you fly with is pretty good. Ask him to fly and hover your plane. While practice will make you better. It would be nice to know if the plane is set up right.

david

Thanks Dave, I'll look into that, after posting what servo i had on the rudder i got to looking at the torque on the s148, it was only 33 oz's so i switched it out to a 3004, 45 oz's but what you say does make alot of since. I am new to this thing called 3-d but did not know it was so technical[sm=drowning.gif].

For a start you're trying to learn to hover with the wrong plane.

Go get yourself a decent profile model like the Mojo/Moass 60.

There's nothing easier to hover than a profile and when the inevitable happens (dumb-thumb) something like the Mojo/Moass will probably require nothing more than a new prop to get you flying again while that Extra would be turned into a pile of firewood.

Don't be put off by the looks of a 3D (some love em, most hate em) they are the very very best way to fly 3D if you can't afford or don't want one of those huge gasers.

I have a 50cc Extra 330L, a 91-powered P51 Mustang, a hot-rod aerobatic ship and several profiles. I fly my profiles 99% of the time because they're just so much more fun!

Same here on the profiles. I have a 52"&67" Fusion from OMP. I fly them 95% of the time. The 67" will hover nearly hands off.
Think about the 6v pack also Jay. It will bring all your servos to life.

David

Dave, I am old school on the battery packs, i am running nicad's, so do you mean i can add a cell to my present pack without burning up my reciever? As for the phoenix, this it what i have, one day i will get it right,[sm=eek.gif] i hope!! haha!

I have used 6volt nicad and nimh receiver packs for many years and never had a problem. Not sure if it is safe to add a new cell to your existing 4-cells? It is probably better to buy a new 6v pack.

used a W prop, like an APC with a 4 pitch, the plane will rev higher at hover and be more in its power band.

I have taken two stock packs apart to make a 6v pack. I use it on an old plane only because I dont' trust my solder job 100%. It has worked fine though for 2 years now. The last 6V I bought was a 2000NiMih. I really like being able to fly all day without recharging. Your RX can handle 6V with no problem. I do use a heavy duty switch with the 6V but the stock one will handle it.

David

Dave, I going to do just that, i have been in electronis all of my working life so soldering is not a problem. Well IKE passed on by over night, man what a storm, so this morning the wind was about 10 to 15 mph and took the extra out for some practice, still couldn;t make it hang so i added some weight to the tail and finally hung it for about 30 seconds, i could not believe i finally did it, it's been to noise heavy the whole time then a big cloud comes up and had to head in, (more rain) don't think it will last long so i'm going to add another cell and cycle the pack and see what happens. thanks for all the advice.
Oh, and the 3004 servo was doing good on the rudder, i know when i add the other cell it will be stronger.


Jay

I dint read the hole post, I dont know if any one already said this but....

you can also try bursts of power insted of a steady RPM for a hover..

FAST-J

Your 3004 won't be much better at 6v, your torque only goes from 44 to 57 in/oz and transit time goes from .23 to .19 Get a better servo.
For soldering cells in series nothing is better than solder wick. For a tech that is no problem.
A very hot iron, 500F and get off the cell fast. Utectic solder is good. SN63PB57
If you go to 6v packs make sure you have a charger and servos that will handle them. Some of the older servos will not last long on 6v. The Futaba 3010 will do the job for you (90 oz-in) at 6v and is about $25.
I switched from NiCds to NiMh cells but if you over heat the NiMh cells you can reduce the capacity drastically. Can you guess how I know?

Regards, FRED

Hey Fred, I have backed off the idea of 6 volts, got to thinking about my chargers (4.8 volt) do not have a 6v charger so the heck with it. As for the servo, someone recommended the futaba s3305 ($34.99 tower) 99oz of torque at 4.8 v. How much torque do i need for the rudder with 4.8v? Watching some servos on ebay at the moment..

FAST-J

If you are at 4.8 v the 3305 is a choice.

Regards, FRED

I have a Phoenix 300S and its merely an aerobatic plane it is no way a 3D plane. The control surfaces are much to small. I will say that it is a great flying plane just not built for 3D.

Oops sorry I thought you were talking about the 300S but after reading your post again its the 330S which Im not sure of sorry.

imo
The jr ds821 would be good for all your control surfaces and the throtle too, from what i can gather this is a 40 size plane so, the torq on these are plenty for this plane, for 3d it is pretty much a necesity to have hi speed servos.
The best way to get the cg set is to do some flight testing, take it up, pull verticle at 45 degree angle and roll inverted and let go of the sticks, if it starts to nose down then it is nose heavy,
if it climbs then it is tail heavy. The way my planes are set up is so that they are perfectly balenced.

hope this helps

Well guy's, Boy have i made alot of changes, first i have upgraded the servos, rudder i now have a futaba s3305 (works great) and elevator and ailerons now have s3310, much better!! I have also said the heck with the JBA 91 (never wanted to run rigt a 45 degree mounting) and got an O.S. .91FX, this is one sweet engine, no problems at any rpm, i have only flown with new servos once, and the engine has about 1 1/2 gallons through it. At this point i think the plane maybe a little tale heavy because even at a 1/2 tank of fuel she gets real tail heavy (running 12oz tank) and comes in with the noise up with no elevator, does this sound like i am thinking right about the c.g.? When in the air doing almost any manuever i barely have to touch the elevator and is on low rate, and also if i give to much it wants to snap left real crazy at high or low speeds, what could this be?

Thanks, Jay

Try using some Expo if you are not already.

You are too far aft, taking it a little forward from where you are will not affect hovering and helps to reduce the snaping tendences and to have easier landings!, also, check the latteral ballance and geometry. Another thing is to play with the thrust angle, with the right setup it reduces a lot the fight to stay nose up.
I know you have already decided to use 4.8v, but with a 2s lipo and a regulator you can have 6v, less weight and quick charge (at the field if you want) with plenty of power, look at hobbycity.com, very good prices.
All 3d stuff gets better also if you reduce the airframe weight, a cf landing gear with foam wheels is an easy improvement.

Daniel