Well I'd just like to thank you all very much for confusing the heck out of me! I've been lucky I guess because I've been using the rudder all along just naturally I guess. When I set up on final & get her leveled out I just use tiny touches of rudder to stear her in except lately since we've been flying in 20+ mph winds where we're bringing her in hot & pretty much sideways then kicking it straight just before touch-down with alot of rudder. I've been using the rudder with the ailerons for smoother more co-ordinated turns too. ( I guess some of those bad habits I learned on the sim) oops it's not friday yet is it? Sorry ken. Anyway I've been doing the rudder thing all along without even thinking about it, now you guys gave me all this stuff to think about probably screwed me up for life.[>:]