HELP with learning rudder control
03-09-2006 | 03:21 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Corona, CA
HELP with learning rudder control
I have about 6 gallons through my second plane, a super stick .40 with a magnum .46. I am having a blast doing endless touch-and-go's, A-roll and loops, but I have noticed that I rarely use the rudder. I line-up and adjust for landings instinctively using the ailerons.
Is there an instructor's trick or drill I could use to get better at using the rudder control? I would like to be a competent flyer and progress from here eventually, but I seem to be stuck using only 3 channels, unless it's windy, that is. Then I am forced to put a bit of rudder to land.
Help from experienced flyers, instructors and left-handed beginners will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
Is there an instructor's trick or drill I could use to get better at using the rudder control? I would like to be a competent flyer and progress from here eventually, but I seem to be stuck using only 3 channels, unless it's windy, that is. Then I am forced to put a bit of rudder to land.
Help from experienced flyers, instructors and left-handed beginners will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
03-09-2006 | 03:39 PM
#2
My Feedback: (4)
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Flower Mound, TX
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
I'd like to know too actually. I find myself using my rudder very infrequently.
So... post your techniques for practising rudder control now!
So... post your techniques for practising rudder control now!
03-09-2006 | 03:40 PM
#3
Senior Member
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Idea stolen from Twinman.
Have a friend push the rudder trim all the way to one side and stand close so he can put it back if necessary. If you can fly five circuits without getting disorientated you will be on your way to learning to use the rudder.
Bill
Have a friend push the rudder trim all the way to one side and stand close so he can put it back if necessary. If you can fly five circuits without getting disorientated you will be on your way to learning to use the rudder.
Bill
03-09-2006 | 03:41 PM
#4
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Hey Mark:
Try coupling opposite rudder control with airelons for a flatter turn. Of course there is number of manuevers using rudder; stall turns, snap rolls, spins, etc.
kf
Try coupling opposite rudder control with airelons for a flatter turn. Of course there is number of manuevers using rudder; stall turns, snap rolls, spins, etc.
kf
03-09-2006 | 04:05 PM
#6
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Mark,
As an instructor, here is how I teach my students. It's easy and fun.
Get airborne and get nice and high but not too high. Come down the runway nice and level and start your turn using only the rudder but not all of it, say about half. Now if the plane starts to drop a wing then use opposite aileron to keep the wings level and also keeping the plane from gaining or losing altitude using power and elevator.
Keep doing this in both left and right patterns until you can do it with being too nervous. Now increase the amount of rudder and do it all again.
Once you can do level turns and are comfortable now it's time to start doing this while on approach to land but you will remain high enough in the approach so you actually do not land. The trick now will be to use the rudder to drop a wing, use power and elevator to maintain a shallow decent and the ailerons only enough to keep the plane from turning but not leveling the wings and pointing straight down the runway. This is called a slip and is not easy to do but makes for some great crosswind landing abilities and also a great way to lose lots of altitude quickly.
Do not try the slip until you get the other things mastered first. It sounds like allot but you'll get it pretty quickly
As an instructor, here is how I teach my students. It's easy and fun.
Get airborne and get nice and high but not too high. Come down the runway nice and level and start your turn using only the rudder but not all of it, say about half. Now if the plane starts to drop a wing then use opposite aileron to keep the wings level and also keeping the plane from gaining or losing altitude using power and elevator.
Keep doing this in both left and right patterns until you can do it with being too nervous. Now increase the amount of rudder and do it all again.
Once you can do level turns and are comfortable now it's time to start doing this while on approach to land but you will remain high enough in the approach so you actually do not land. The trick now will be to use the rudder to drop a wing, use power and elevator to maintain a shallow decent and the ailerons only enough to keep the plane from turning but not leveling the wings and pointing straight down the runway. This is called a slip and is not easy to do but makes for some great crosswind landing abilities and also a great way to lose lots of altitude quickly.
Do not try the slip until you get the other things mastered first. It sounds like allot but you'll get it pretty quickly
03-09-2006 | 06:49 PM
#7
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
I have my students do lots of figure 8's using mostly rudder for the whole 8, then we start doing what Bubba said. If you want to get fancy about it do the figure 8's inverted with the rudder. ENJOY !!! RED
03-09-2006 | 07:06 PM
#8
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Columbia,
MD
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
You mean to say there is a use for that little stick on the left of my TX other than throtle? You learn something everyday, I've always wondered what was the purpose of the lateral movement it has.
03-09-2006 | 07:13 PM
#9
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
Mark,
As an instructor, here is how I teach my students. It's easy and fun.
Get airborne and get nice and high but not too high. Come down the runway nice and level and start your turn using only the rudder but not all of it, say about half. Now if the plane starts to drop a wing then use opposite aileron to keep the wings level and also keeping the plane from gaining or losing altitude using power and elevator.
Keep doing this in both left and right patterns until you can do it with being too nervous. Now increase the amount of rudder and do it all again.
Once you can do level turns and are comfortable now it's time to start doing this while on approach to land but you will remain high enough in the approach so you actually do not land. The trick now will be to use the rudder to drop a wing, use power and elevator to maintain a shallow decent and the ailerons only enough to keep the plane from turning but not leveling the wings and pointing straight down the runway. This is called a slip and is not easy to do but makes for some great crosswind landing abilities and also a great way to lose lots of altitude quickly.
Do not try the slip until you get the other things mastered first. It sounds like allot but you'll get it pretty quickly
Mark,
As an instructor, here is how I teach my students. It's easy and fun.
Get airborne and get nice and high but not too high. Come down the runway nice and level and start your turn using only the rudder but not all of it, say about half. Now if the plane starts to drop a wing then use opposite aileron to keep the wings level and also keeping the plane from gaining or losing altitude using power and elevator.
Keep doing this in both left and right patterns until you can do it with being too nervous. Now increase the amount of rudder and do it all again.
Once you can do level turns and are comfortable now it's time to start doing this while on approach to land but you will remain high enough in the approach so you actually do not land. The trick now will be to use the rudder to drop a wing, use power and elevator to maintain a shallow decent and the ailerons only enough to keep the plane from turning but not leveling the wings and pointing straight down the runway. This is called a slip and is not easy to do but makes for some great crosswind landing abilities and also a great way to lose lots of altitude quickly.
Do not try the slip until you get the other things mastered first. It sounds like allot but you'll get it pretty quickly
On the slip thing I mentioned, keep working yourself lower until you can land this way but remember to straighten the plane just before touchdown. In a crosswind slip type landing you will be dropping the wing that is towards (into) the wind, using only enough opposite rudder to stop the turn induced by the ailerons and applying power/elevator to maintain it all, in that order.
It's allot to do all at once but once you get to that level you'll quickly find that your landings will greatly improve in wind and also with no wind and your overall control of the plane in all flight attitudes will also improve.
The rudder is your most powerful control surface and in most cases your biggest control surface, learning to use it properly can really help and in the case of lose of aileron control you will use the rudder to steer the plane around and safely land it.
I commend you both for wanting to learn it's use
03-09-2006 | 07:22 PM
#10
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: flybug
You mean to say there is a use for that little stick on the left of my TX other than throtle? You learn something everyday, I've always wondered what was the purpose of the lateral movement it has.
You mean to say there is a use for that little stick on the left of my TX other than throtle? You learn something everyday, I've always wondered what was the purpose of the lateral movement it has.
Yep, it's amazing what that little stick can make the plane do
In all seriousness, the competition level guys use the rudder as much as all of the other control surfaces and the sport guys I know use for all the same reasons as the comp guys which is basiclly better control and as already mentioned there is a host of advnced maneuvers that require the rudder to be used. I'm a person that does both
Knife Edge Flight
Stall Turns (Also known as Hammerheads)
Snap rolls
Any straight vertical climb where you are at full power and the plane is slowing since torque will want to make the plane start to yaw to the left unless you have trimmed the plane by adding right engine thrust
I could go on and on
03-09-2006 | 08:48 PM
#11
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Austin,
TX
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Get a scale Cub, if that won't learn you to use the rudder, aint nothing going to.
Seriously, next time you fly, just practice using the rudder. See how much prettier the turns are when you use a little rudder along with the ailerons, especially at lower flying speeds....something that requires the use of another frequently forgotten control...the throttle. After a while, it will become a habit, a very good habit.
Seriously, next time you fly, just practice using the rudder. See how much prettier the turns are when you use a little rudder along with the ailerons, especially at lower flying speeds....something that requires the use of another frequently forgotten control...the throttle. After a while, it will become a habit, a very good habit.
03-09-2006 | 09:51 PM
#12
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chesapeake,
VA
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
hers the easy way...
Have someone stand next to you while your doing your touch and goes saying "rudder...rudder...rudder..."
You can do it on your own, you just need a concious reminder....
Have someone stand next to you while your doing your touch and goes saying "rudder...rudder...rudder..."
You can do it on your own, you just need a concious reminder....
03-14-2006 | 09:18 AM
#13
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: B.L.E.
Get a scale Cub, if that won't learn you to use the rudder, aint nothing going to.
Get a scale Cub, if that won't learn you to use the rudder, aint nothing going to.
Actually you could probably go one better and say any Cub,
Big wing, short stubby fuselage equals lots of adverse yaw needs lots of rudder. Without rudder on a cub it's a matter of time before it will roll over on it's back because you added more aileron to get it to turn quicker and made the yaw worse then it will suddenly snap to the direction you moved the stick and now you are overcontrolling and heading into a spiral that only opposite rudder can get you out of.
03-14-2006 | 10:18 AM
#14
Senior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: pelham, NH
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Rudder may be the most powerful control but a better way of putting it is that rudder control is the first function you get as you increase speed and more importantly, the last function you lose as you approach stall speed. Once you have soloed, and it can be done with just elevator and aileron with a little throttle as an afterthought, you should learn to fly with all 4 fuctions.
03-14-2006 | 10:20 AM
#15
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Tracy,
CA
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Well I'd just like to thank you all very much for confusing the heck out of me! I've been lucky I guess because I've been using the rudder all along just naturally I guess. When I set up on final & get her leveled out I just use tiny touches of rudder to stear her in except lately since we've been flying in 20+ mph winds where we're bringing her in hot & pretty much sideways then kicking it straight just before touch-down with alot of rudder. I've been using the rudder with the ailerons for smoother more co-ordinated turns too. ( I guess some of those bad habits I learned on the sim) oops it's not friday yet is it? Sorry ken. Anyway I've been doing the rudder thing all along without even thinking about it, now you guys gave me all this stuff to think about probably screwed me up for life.[>:]
03-14-2006 | 11:02 AM
#16
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: elenasgrumpy
Well I'd just like to thank you all very much for confusing the heck out of me! I've been lucky I guess because I've been using the rudder all along just naturally I guess. When I set up on final & get her leveled out I just use tiny touches of rudder to stear her in except lately since we've been flying in 20+ mph winds where we're bringing her in hot & pretty much sideways then kicking it straight just before touch-down with alot of rudder. I've been using the rudder with the ailerons for smoother more co-ordinated turns too. ( I guess some of those bad habits I learned on the sim) oops it's not friday yet is it? Sorry ken. Anyway I've been doing the rudder thing all along without even thinking about it, now you guys gave me all this stuff to think about probably screwed me up for life.[>:]
Well I'd just like to thank you all very much for confusing the heck out of me! I've been lucky I guess because I've been using the rudder all along just naturally I guess. When I set up on final & get her leveled out I just use tiny touches of rudder to stear her in except lately since we've been flying in 20+ mph winds where we're bringing her in hot & pretty much sideways then kicking it straight just before touch-down with alot of rudder. I've been using the rudder with the ailerons for smoother more co-ordinated turns too. ( I guess some of those bad habits I learned on the sim) oops it's not friday yet is it? Sorry ken. Anyway I've been doing the rudder thing all along without even thinking about it, now you guys gave me all this stuff to think about probably screwed me up for life.[>:]
Mark,
You were screwed up for life the minute you started in this hobby and I think it's time we have a elenasgrumpy day. You live on here as much as the rest of us
Your crosswind technique is just fine. That is called a crab. It is something we do in full scale all the time but in a hard crosswind sometimes a crab is not enough to keep you lined up with the runway and that is where the slip comes in.
A slip is way harder to do but once mastered can really improved your crosswind abilities and confindence. A different kind of slip can allow you to lose allot of altitude quickly, it's known as a sideslip. The difference here is you put more of the side of the aircraft in the direction of flight using allot more rudder which creates allot of drag which causes a loss of airspeed which makes it drop like a rock. It's a fine balance of all the flight and power controls.
If I have not screwed you up enough yet, then imagine trying to maintain the same flight path in a slip under gusting crosswinds.
Here is a great video that shows some serious sideslip/frontslip landings with BIG airplanes. Be sure to check out the amount of rudder that is being used. This video was for side load tests on the new Boeing 777 and and eailer one of the 747-400
http://www.hiddenhangarrc.com/video/...d-landings.wmv
03-14-2006 | 11:30 AM
#18
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: elenasgrumpy
Ahh those guys are sissy's.
We spent all day landing like that yesterday, only we didn't have any flaps![X(]
Ahh those guys are sissy's.
We spent all day landing like that yesterday, only we didn't have any flaps![X(]
Oh that's mean...
Try putting the same side loads on your plane and see what happens to the landing gear. Not matter I think that video is just plain amazing and I definitely would not want to be in the cabin for those landings let alone the guy at the controls trying to maintain runway heading, decent rate and a host of other things he is doing, even with the help of the co-pilot
03-14-2006 | 11:37 AM
#19
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Tracy,
CA
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Lol Me neither!! I remember as a kid flying with my Dad & doing landings like that In a Cardinal 182. Used to scare the heck out of me!
I've watched that vid before, it is pretty impressive!
I've watched that vid before, it is pretty impressive!
03-14-2006 | 11:44 AM
#20
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
Yep, I've done those types of landings in Stearmans and Pitts S-12's as well as the odd Piper Cherokee, Cub and Cessna 172. The high wing Cessna and Cub always seemed the toughest because the wind had more space to get under the wing and lift it.
The bipes were not too bad as I was already used to what we affectionetly called "the Rudder Dance" that you always had to do on takeoff and landings to keep the thing straight
The bipes were not too bad as I was already used to what we affectionetly called "the Rudder Dance" that you always had to do on takeoff and landings to keep the thing straight
03-14-2006 | 11:48 AM
#21
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Tracy,
CA
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
Mark,
You were screwed up for life the minute you started in this hobby and I think it's time we have a elenasgrumpy day. You live on here as much as the rest of us
Mark,
You were screwed up for life the minute you started in this hobby and I think it's time we have a elenasgrumpy day. You live on here as much as the rest of us
No moderator pay=no pick on Grumpy day! And I think we all know that I am far from moderator material. I think even Chuck will agree with me on that one!
03-14-2006 | 12:08 PM
#22
RCU Forum Manager/Admin
My Feedback: (9)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: elenasgrumpy
No moderator pay=no pick on Grumpy day!
No moderator pay=no pick on Grumpy day!
And I'm pretty sure Bubba will chip in some of his pay too!!!
Ken
03-14-2006 | 01:04 PM
#25
My Feedback: (32)
RE: HELP with learning rudder control
ORIGINAL: RCKen
I'll tell you what, I'll send you a check for half of my moderator pay!!!!
And I'm pretty sure Bubba will chip in some of his pay too!!!
Ken
ORIGINAL: elenasgrumpy
No moderator pay=no pick on Grumpy day!
No moderator pay=no pick on Grumpy day!
And I'm pretty sure Bubba will chip in some of his pay too!!!
Ken
