"are you hovering at all" ............I got to the point, late last fall, where I could hould it there for about 2 1/2 seconds, about 15 feet off the ground (is this a good place to start? I am more comfortable, flying close to the ground than most guys at my club, was doing inverted touch-and-goes (rudder) last year with my sons spad trainer>flat bottom , dihedral; can yank a plane around 5-10 feet high all day, pull out of spins under 10 feet etc. so I feel like I CAN master hovering/harrier> was also harier/elevatoring somewhat, deffinitely in high alpha for some time, that's how I crashed, hit my car's open trunk lid*&@#> with enough practice!) but the plane would fall out before I figured out what control inputs to use. How about aierlerons? how much are they used compared to rudder for controlling rocking vs. yawing ( I think I just answered my own ?, use rudder for yaw. aiel. for rocking; roll, but what's the percentage used;ratio?)but anyway.. enough rambling......thank's wayne, any more suggestions????????????I'm also kinda looking for more visual clues too, with regard too elevator, aeil.,throttle input?