Ama
08-08-2003 | 02:38 PM
#76
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
Joe
Your laments are exactly what I do not understand. I am just another member. I have no political aspirations within the AMA. I would refuse an appointment as AVP if offered and it won't be offered. What I know is mostly based on what the AMA does make publicly available. I have no special relationship with the AMA other than I am a CD and Leader Member. When I have a question, I ask. The people at HQ virtuallly always answer, and in a very timely manner. The same is true of the EC.
Each year, a recharter package is sent to the club. To the club contact designated by the club. It is written in plain English, not in legalize. The only thing that I have found that you need to be aware of in reading it is that should does not mean must. Most of the insurance questions are answered there. As a matter of fact, they are answered more than once, in many cases. In an effort to make the information available to all members.. and non-members for that matter, the package is on the AMA site. Not hidden in the Member's Only section, but out where anyone can access them. Many of the points are set up under a heading and numbered, just as you suggest.
If one takes the time to read, and try to understand the recharter package, the AMA by-laws and the AMA Safety Code, about 97% of the questions asked in this forum will be answered.
When anyone runs into an unanswered question they can get an almost immediate answer with an e-mail, or a telephone call. The same is true when help is needed, such as when a club field comes under attack. We constantly see the phrase "I find it hard to believe that...". I am not sure why. No one needs to rely on my statements or opinion. There is no reason for club leaders not to know the facts, yet, many do not.
The AMA will not make everyone happy. No organization will. In your case, you want a higher weight limits. My club has members who want the weight limit decreased. The examples of differences of opinion can go on and on. The organization tries to do what is necessary for all of us. Our leaders do accept input. The will not always agree with our positions. They will not always change their mind to conform to our individual opinions.
As to your lament about the way clubs are run: if you want to see people get upset, just have the AMA try and tell clubs how to run things. Reference the recent requirement for by-laws.
There is a lot of freedom out there. Would you really want it any other way?
Personally, I would rather rag on the things I think need changing than to sit and try to straighten out misunderstandings. I do it in the hopes that others will get the facts and post them up when questions are asked. Several of us in this forum do that. Who else will deal with facts and not conjecture, and help others? Will you be one?
JR
Your laments are exactly what I do not understand. I am just another member. I have no political aspirations within the AMA. I would refuse an appointment as AVP if offered and it won't be offered. What I know is mostly based on what the AMA does make publicly available. I have no special relationship with the AMA other than I am a CD and Leader Member. When I have a question, I ask. The people at HQ virtuallly always answer, and in a very timely manner. The same is true of the EC.
Each year, a recharter package is sent to the club. To the club contact designated by the club. It is written in plain English, not in legalize. The only thing that I have found that you need to be aware of in reading it is that should does not mean must. Most of the insurance questions are answered there. As a matter of fact, they are answered more than once, in many cases. In an effort to make the information available to all members.. and non-members for that matter, the package is on the AMA site. Not hidden in the Member's Only section, but out where anyone can access them. Many of the points are set up under a heading and numbered, just as you suggest.
If one takes the time to read, and try to understand the recharter package, the AMA by-laws and the AMA Safety Code, about 97% of the questions asked in this forum will be answered.
When anyone runs into an unanswered question they can get an almost immediate answer with an e-mail, or a telephone call. The same is true when help is needed, such as when a club field comes under attack. We constantly see the phrase "I find it hard to believe that...". I am not sure why. No one needs to rely on my statements or opinion. There is no reason for club leaders not to know the facts, yet, many do not.
The AMA will not make everyone happy. No organization will. In your case, you want a higher weight limits. My club has members who want the weight limit decreased. The examples of differences of opinion can go on and on. The organization tries to do what is necessary for all of us. Our leaders do accept input. The will not always agree with our positions. They will not always change their mind to conform to our individual opinions.
As to your lament about the way clubs are run: if you want to see people get upset, just have the AMA try and tell clubs how to run things. Reference the recent requirement for by-laws.
There is a lot of freedom out there. Would you really want it any other way?
Personally, I would rather rag on the things I think need changing than to sit and try to straighten out misunderstandings. I do it in the hopes that others will get the facts and post them up when questions are asked. Several of us in this forum do that. Who else will deal with facts and not conjecture, and help others? Will you be one?
JR
08-08-2003 | 02:43 PM
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
Originally posted by blue62
i have the ama membership but one thing i like the look of....on the uma website the first thing you see is "Let us know how we can
serve you
contact us
Guy Maiorka and the staff of UMA "
sounds like they at least want to hear what you have to say. kinda refreshing really.
i have the ama membership but one thing i like the look of....on the uma website the first thing you see is "Let us know how we can
serve you
contact us
Guy Maiorka and the staff of UMA "
sounds like they at least want to hear what you have to say. kinda refreshing really.
On the other hand, the AMA site has a "Contact Us" section. It lists not only the leaders, but the staff, by name and function of those that will help you at HQ. My personal experience, over a lot of years, is that all will be extremely helpful.
JR
08-08-2003 | 03:07 PM
#79
clubs
No JR I think you took the meaning out of context I wasnt ragging about anything but just mentioning a lot of the stuff I see happening in the clubs. I been affiliated with abt 7 clubs over the years and at everyone all we heard was that the AMA REQUIRES this or that and no matter how hard you tried to explain that certain items are just AMA suggestions they wouldnt buy it. so then you have people blaming that the AMA is requireing certain restrictions.
that is the point I was trying to make that a lot of blame is going to the AMA where it shouldnt be. now if I personally have seen problems at 7 clubs mis-interpreting the AMA's rules then theres something wroing somewhere. Not picking on any persons but there are a lot of people in charge of clubs etc that havent had very much schooling thus need everything spelled out in very simple easy to read format. these same people seem to be the same old timers that have their own majority clicke group and so get voted in year after year. Now if the AMA would get rid of all their suggestions and kept the rules plain and simple I think there would be a lot better understanding of them. All their suggestions do is to confuse some people and you can explain their word suggestion means its niot a rule til your blue in the face and they will not believe it.
Joe
that is the point I was trying to make that a lot of blame is going to the AMA where it shouldnt be. now if I personally have seen problems at 7 clubs mis-interpreting the AMA's rules then theres something wroing somewhere. Not picking on any persons but there are a lot of people in charge of clubs etc that havent had very much schooling thus need everything spelled out in very simple easy to read format. these same people seem to be the same old timers that have their own majority clicke group and so get voted in year after year. Now if the AMA would get rid of all their suggestions and kept the rules plain and simple I think there would be a lot better understanding of them. All their suggestions do is to confuse some people and you can explain their word suggestion means its niot a rule til your blue in the face and they will not believe it.
Joe
08-08-2003 | 03:22 PM
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
LOL.
Joe. I want to rag. I did not mean to say you were.
The AMA makes suggestions instead of rules for a reason. If it is a rule, you must comply. I think you will find that most members do not want more rules. Trying to help clubs with guidelines is a legitimate service to the clubs. Most suggestions are safety suggestions or suggestions that are for the welfare of clubs i.e. not exposing clubs to uncovered liability by letting non-members fly at chartered club fields. Personally, I think that is a pretty good suggestion, as are the ones like putting frequency numbers on your Tx. At the same time, I don't really want more rules that say "your must". Liability is a somewhat complicated subject and not easily reduced to a "one size fits all' set of rules.
I know in the clubs I have belonged to that it is hard to find volunteers to run for club office. Most that will serve are railroaded into doing so. I can only wish that others that are willing to serve would step forward and run; much the same situation that AMA EC faces.
JR
Joe. I want to rag. I did not mean to say you were.
The AMA makes suggestions instead of rules for a reason. If it is a rule, you must comply. I think you will find that most members do not want more rules. Trying to help clubs with guidelines is a legitimate service to the clubs. Most suggestions are safety suggestions or suggestions that are for the welfare of clubs i.e. not exposing clubs to uncovered liability by letting non-members fly at chartered club fields. Personally, I think that is a pretty good suggestion, as are the ones like putting frequency numbers on your Tx. At the same time, I don't really want more rules that say "your must". Liability is a somewhat complicated subject and not easily reduced to a "one size fits all' set of rules.
I know in the clubs I have belonged to that it is hard to find volunteers to run for club office. Most that will serve are railroaded into doing so. I can only wish that others that are willing to serve would step forward and run; much the same situation that AMA EC faces.
JR
08-08-2003 | 03:29 PM
#81
AMA
Nothing wrong with suggestions just put out a seperate document and call it suggestions for clubs but dont put them in with their rules seperate it so it is plain and clear it is only a suggestion.
Joe
Joe
08-09-2003 | 12:11 AM
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From: lockhart,
TX
J_R
Hey dude,
Ok i did contact Guy with the UMA in fact they do also cover the trip and fall thing you speak of. They also do cover my non pilot family under the charter for the field. The family membership is for those families that have more then one pilot to help reduce the cost. Also you motioned the profit or nonprofit the UMA is for profit but will volunteer the help needed to start in the hobby. However the AMA is a nonprofit organization that charges meaning the officers do get a paycheck for there services claiming to be nonprofit. What is the reason the membership cost went up this time does it have to do with retirement for the AMA staff? You know someone made the commit the the AMA dictates to us, the fact is we dictate to them. Think about it they make the rules, they say do it this way, they say if you are not we wont help you. If they are nonprofit why? Just do this look at the tax statement and see how much goes back to the member i think they could do better being 18 million bucks strong. There is one hundred sixty five thousand members now not counting the sigs. How much do you put forth to your club beside the 58 bucks? Don't you think the AMA could help more with there wealth? This is my problem the AMA claims to be nonprofit but they get paid ! I volunteer my time to new pilots try to teach them how to be safe and have fun. The AMA says i cant do that to see if they even like it before they have to pay them. The UMA however provides insurance for the new pilots while on the buddy box to encourage the hobby. They both have pro's and con's but look at the motives the UMA is yes trying to profit. They want to help every new pilot free of charge. The AMA however is nonprofit trying to make a paycheck for helping before they even help any one person. Thats my points with you J_R like it or not thats my feelings. It is pointless for you to keep things going this way we both feel differently. I feel if the AMA will survive they need some major reform. Until they do so there will always be a UMA or someone else to come along and challenge them for what they claim to be.
Ok i did contact Guy with the UMA in fact they do also cover the trip and fall thing you speak of. They also do cover my non pilot family under the charter for the field. The family membership is for those families that have more then one pilot to help reduce the cost. Also you motioned the profit or nonprofit the UMA is for profit but will volunteer the help needed to start in the hobby. However the AMA is a nonprofit organization that charges meaning the officers do get a paycheck for there services claiming to be nonprofit. What is the reason the membership cost went up this time does it have to do with retirement for the AMA staff? You know someone made the commit the the AMA dictates to us, the fact is we dictate to them. Think about it they make the rules, they say do it this way, they say if you are not we wont help you. If they are nonprofit why? Just do this look at the tax statement and see how much goes back to the member i think they could do better being 18 million bucks strong. There is one hundred sixty five thousand members now not counting the sigs. How much do you put forth to your club beside the 58 bucks? Don't you think the AMA could help more with there wealth? This is my problem the AMA claims to be nonprofit but they get paid ! I volunteer my time to new pilots try to teach them how to be safe and have fun. The AMA says i cant do that to see if they even like it before they have to pay them. The UMA however provides insurance for the new pilots while on the buddy box to encourage the hobby. They both have pro's and con's but look at the motives the UMA is yes trying to profit. They want to help every new pilot free of charge. The AMA however is nonprofit trying to make a paycheck for helping before they even help any one person. Thats my points with you J_R like it or not thats my feelings. It is pointless for you to keep things going this way we both feel differently. I feel if the AMA will survive they need some major reform. Until they do so there will always be a UMA or someone else to come along and challenge them for what they claim to be.
08-09-2003 | 01:13 AM
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From: Corona, CA,
Re: J_R
Originally posted by hotrod468
Hey dude,
Ok i did contact Guy with the UMA in fact they do also cover the trip and fall thing you speak of. They also do cover my non pilot family under the charter for the field. The family membership is for those families that have more then one pilot to help reduce the cost. Also you motioned the profit or nonprofit the UMA is for profit but will volunteer the help needed to start in the hobby. However the AMA is a nonprofit organization that charges meaning the officers do get a paycheck for there services claiming to be nonprofit. What is the reason the membership cost went up this time does it have to do with retirement for the AMA staff? You know someone made the commit the the AMA dictates to us, the fact is we dictate to them. Think about it they make the rules, they say do it this way, they say if you are not we wont help you. If they are nonprofit why? Just do this look at the tax statement and see how much goes back to the member i think they could do better being 18 million bucks strong. There is one hundred sixty five thousand members now not counting the sigs. How much do you put forth to your club beside the 58 bucks? Don't you think the AMA could help more with there wealth? This is my problem the AMA claims to be nonprofit but they get paid ! I volunteer my time to new pilots try to teach them how to be safe and have fun. The AMA says i cant do that to see if they even like it before they have to pay them. The UMA however provides insurance for the new pilots while on the buddy box to encourage the hobby. They both have pro's and con's but look at the motives the UMA is yes trying to profit. They want to help every new pilot free of charge. The AMA however is nonprofit trying to make a paycheck for helping before they even help any one person. Thats my points with you J_R like it or not thats my feelings. It is pointless for you to keep things going this way we both feel differently. I feel if the AMA will survive they need some major reform. Until they do so there will always be a UMA or someone else to come along and challenge them for what they claim to be.
Hey dude,
Ok i did contact Guy with the UMA in fact they do also cover the trip and fall thing you speak of. They also do cover my non pilot family under the charter for the field. The family membership is for those families that have more then one pilot to help reduce the cost. Also you motioned the profit or nonprofit the UMA is for profit but will volunteer the help needed to start in the hobby. However the AMA is a nonprofit organization that charges meaning the officers do get a paycheck for there services claiming to be nonprofit. What is the reason the membership cost went up this time does it have to do with retirement for the AMA staff? You know someone made the commit the the AMA dictates to us, the fact is we dictate to them. Think about it they make the rules, they say do it this way, they say if you are not we wont help you. If they are nonprofit why? Just do this look at the tax statement and see how much goes back to the member i think they could do better being 18 million bucks strong. There is one hundred sixty five thousand members now not counting the sigs. How much do you put forth to your club beside the 58 bucks? Don't you think the AMA could help more with there wealth? This is my problem the AMA claims to be nonprofit but they get paid ! I volunteer my time to new pilots try to teach them how to be safe and have fun. The AMA says i cant do that to see if they even like it before they have to pay them. The UMA however provides insurance for the new pilots while on the buddy box to encourage the hobby. They both have pro's and con's but look at the motives the UMA is yes trying to profit. They want to help every new pilot free of charge. The AMA however is nonprofit trying to make a paycheck for helping before they even help any one person. Thats my points with you J_R like it or not thats my feelings. It is pointless for you to keep things going this way we both feel differently. I feel if the AMA will survive they need some major reform. Until they do so there will always be a UMA or someone else to come along and challenge them for what they claim to be.
Apparently you have gotten some information that I do not have.
If I understand correctly, Guy Maiorka told you that the officers of the AMA are paid. Is that correct? How much did he say that are paid?
If I understand correctly, Guy Marioka told you that if you were to accidently hit one of your family members with your plane, they would be covered. Is that correct?
Did Guy Marioka suggest to you that the AMA dues was increased to pay the retirement of AMA officers?
I do understand that the UMA allows training on a buddy box for non-UMA members and that the AMA does not do the same thing for non-AMA members.
You also mention a UMA club charter covering you and your family with insurance. I am unfamiliar with that. Can you tell me more?
A SIG is a Special Interest Group and it is a sub group of the AMA such as JPO, or Jet Pilots Organization. Their numbers are counted in the 170,000 members the AMA has. They are not counted seperately.
Thanks for doing the legwork. I looking forward to your comments.
JR
08-09-2003 | 02:10 AM
#84
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From: charlotte,
NC
AMA Introductory Pilot Program
Originally posted by ira d
there is something wrong when 90% of flying sites in the us force
you to be a ama member to fly there even using the buddy box.
i think it only a matter of time before this becomes a problem
and more people start doing there own thing.
Ira d
there is something wrong when 90% of flying sites in the us force
you to be a ama member to fly there even using the buddy box.
i think it only a matter of time before this becomes a problem
and more people start doing there own thing.
Ira d
Under the AMA Introductory Pilot Program, a non-AMA person may receive lessons during a 30-day period under the
direction of a designated AMA Instructor. The program information has been mailed to each Chartered Club. During
supervised flight instruction, liability insurance is provided for the trainee for a 30-day period but only at the club site.
Though the trainee will not receive a membership card, he/she is considered a member of the Academy while under the
direct supervision of the currently registered designated Introductory Pilot. Compliance with the AMA NATIONAL
Model Aircraft Safety Code must be maintained for coverage to be in effect. Coverage under the Intro Pilot Program
begins the day recorded on the Trainee Pilot Registration Form. To take advantage of the full 30 days of liability insurance,
register the trainee after the non-flying instructional session(s)and prior to their first flying exercise at the club
field. This program became effective January 1, 1991 and REPLACED the special 30-day AMA Guest Membership
program previously offered.
08-09-2003 | 02:47 AM
#86
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From: Austin,
TX
Ama
Hotrod- It is obvious that you have a big problem with the AMA. Why don't you use the UMA deal and fly on knowing that you can fly without being opressed by the AMA. Mike Krizan.
08-09-2003 | 02:52 AM
#87
My Feedback: (3)
Ama
Originally posted by Borzak
Good luck finding an instructor that qualifies for the Intro program. Our club has ONE.
Good luck finding an instructor that qualifies for the Intro program. Our club has ONE.
I admit that getting your club to designate an instructor might be a problem but it is a local problem rather than an AMA failure. Frequently local clubs don't have a good handle on what they can and cannot do because there used to be problems in the recharter packet sent out. Recently that has begun to change, but I strongly suspect that many just recall what it used to say and go with that.
Things really are getting better, but we do have a way to go in changing the old bad vibes. Voting for good people is one way you can help make change for the better and move away from the good old boy image some have worked to create.
08-09-2003 | 06:16 AM
#88
Ama
Our club told us this year that instructions in the club recharter
packet said non AMA members can only fly one time on the buddy
box. this seems to contrdict the 30 day intro rule funny thing why
are all the clubs interpreting this the same? i know from looking
at other post this what most clubs think .
Ira d
packet said non AMA members can only fly one time on the buddy
box. this seems to contrdict the 30 day intro rule funny thing why
are all the clubs interpreting this the same? i know from looking
at other post this what most clubs think .
Ira d
08-09-2003 | 01:52 PM
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
Ira_d
Many clubs do not participate in the Into Pilot programs. What has not been posted here is the requirement for the student to pay a $5 fee. What is also not posted is that there is more paperwork for the Inro Instructors than many are willing to do. Each day a student is taught, the instructor must document the training and forward it to the AMA. What also is not posted is that some clubs require club membership before they will allow a student to be part of the Intro program. Some, of course, do not require this. The AMA does not dictate to the clubs.
A new program has been announced but not yet implemented to allow a 90 day trial AMA membership for $19.95. It will not be renewable.
Some clubs are more structured than others. Mine is very laid back and has no interest in the Intro program. Normally, we will train a student and do not, in fact, require club membership, initally. We do, however, require an AMA membership to protect our club members, the club and the landlord.
Since you are very near to me, I invite you to PM me and I will give you the information on how to come to our club if you are interested. It's a pretty nice bunch of guys ('cept me, of course
).
JR
Many clubs do not participate in the Into Pilot programs. What has not been posted here is the requirement for the student to pay a $5 fee. What is also not posted is that there is more paperwork for the Inro Instructors than many are willing to do. Each day a student is taught, the instructor must document the training and forward it to the AMA. What also is not posted is that some clubs require club membership before they will allow a student to be part of the Intro program. Some, of course, do not require this. The AMA does not dictate to the clubs.
A new program has been announced but not yet implemented to allow a 90 day trial AMA membership for $19.95. It will not be renewable.
Some clubs are more structured than others. Mine is very laid back and has no interest in the Intro program. Normally, we will train a student and do not, in fact, require club membership, initally. We do, however, require an AMA membership to protect our club members, the club and the landlord.
Since you are very near to me, I invite you to PM me and I will give you the information on how to come to our club if you are interested. It's a pretty nice bunch of guys ('cept me, of course
). JR
08-09-2003 | 06:16 PM
#90
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From: charlotte,
NC
Into Pilot programs
Originally posted by J_R
Ira_d
Many clubs do not participate in the Into Pilot programs. What has not been posted here is the requirement for the student to pay a $5 fee.
JR
Ira_d
Many clubs do not participate in the Into Pilot programs. What has not been posted here is the requirement for the student to pay a $5 fee.
JR
I couldn't find anything that mentioned this "$5" fee you talk about on the AMA web site. Could you point me to this Info please?
08-09-2003 | 06:23 PM
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From: charlotte,
NC
fee
From an earlier post on another thread by Horrace Cain:
SNIP
>>>>>>>>>
In the intro pilot program, YOU have to be one of the club's designated instruction pilots (there is a small fee for this) and the new flyer has to send in his five bucks and a form in order to be covered for THIRTY DAYS. (If he is still flying after that, he's gotta join the AMA)
<<<<<<<<<<
Not a correct statement.
The $5 is the Club's fee for designating an Intro Pilot.
No funds are required of the trainee. See AMA Document 906.
Not to be confused with document 547.
__________________
Horrace Cain
AMA 539 CD & Leader
END SNIP
Heres the link to AMA Document 906 and 547:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...-files/906.pdf
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...-files/547.pdf
SNIP
>>>>>>>>>
In the intro pilot program, YOU have to be one of the club's designated instruction pilots (there is a small fee for this) and the new flyer has to send in his five bucks and a form in order to be covered for THIRTY DAYS. (If he is still flying after that, he's gotta join the AMA)
<<<<<<<<<<
Not a correct statement.
The $5 is the Club's fee for designating an Intro Pilot.
No funds are required of the trainee. See AMA Document 906.
Not to be confused with document 547.
__________________
Horrace Cain
AMA 539 CD & Leader
END SNIP
Heres the link to AMA Document 906 and 547:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...-files/906.pdf
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...-files/547.pdf
08-09-2003 | 06:50 PM
#92
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From: charlotte,
NC
new pilots
Soap box on.
IMHO I don't think a club should require the intro pilot to join the club and I think the club should pay the $5.00. The rules say the intro pilot can use his own equipment as long as the instructor checks his plane carefully. The 30 day trial period is not renewable, it is not one flight only.
I think its important, if not a duty of every club to get as many new people into the sport as possible and any club that road blocks this goal with inappropriate fees and membership requirements is being petty and small minded.
Soap box off.
IMHO I don't think a club should require the intro pilot to join the club and I think the club should pay the $5.00. The rules say the intro pilot can use his own equipment as long as the instructor checks his plane carefully. The 30 day trial period is not renewable, it is not one flight only.
I think its important, if not a duty of every club to get as many new people into the sport as possible and any club that road blocks this goal with inappropriate fees and membership requirements is being petty and small minded.
Soap box off.
08-09-2003 | 07:45 PM
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
-----Original Message-----
From: Lois Pierce [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 7:59 AM
To: 'JR'
Subject: RE: AMA Introductory Pilot Program
The Introductory Pilot program is a 30 day program our chartered clubs can participate in. While under the IP's supervision the non member can train for 30 consecutive days at which time they have the option to become an AMA member. Participation in this program is on a one-time basis only. This program covers training activities only and does not constitute permission to fly in any organized event of AMA members or clubs, sanctioned or otherwise. No AMA card will be issued to the non-AMA member during the 30-day introduction period.
If you are interested, and you are a member of a current AMA chartered club, one of your club officers needs to fill out and sign the application. There is a $5.00 fee per pilot. Your club can designate up to 3 current members.
-----Original Message-----
From: JR [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 10:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AMA Introductory Pilot Program
Please send me the details of the AMA Introductory Program.
Thanks in advance.
Jean P Rondot
AMA 732
From: Lois Pierce [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 7:59 AM
To: 'JR'
Subject: RE: AMA Introductory Pilot Program
The Introductory Pilot program is a 30 day program our chartered clubs can participate in. While under the IP's supervision the non member can train for 30 consecutive days at which time they have the option to become an AMA member. Participation in this program is on a one-time basis only. This program covers training activities only and does not constitute permission to fly in any organized event of AMA members or clubs, sanctioned or otherwise. No AMA card will be issued to the non-AMA member during the 30-day introduction period.
If you are interested, and you are a member of a current AMA chartered club, one of your club officers needs to fill out and sign the application. There is a $5.00 fee per pilot. Your club can designate up to 3 current members.
-----Original Message-----
From: JR [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 10:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AMA Introductory Pilot Program
Please send me the details of the AMA Introductory Program.
Thanks in advance.
Jean P Rondot
AMA 732
08-09-2003 | 10:37 PM
#94
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From: Corona, CA,
Re: new pilots
Originally posted by goliath
Soap box on.
<SNIP>
I think its important, if not a duty of every club to get as many new people into the sport as possible and any club that road blocks this goal with inappropriate fees and membership requirements is being petty and small minded.
Soap box off.
Soap box on.
<SNIP>
I think its important, if not a duty of every club to get as many new people into the sport as possible and any club that road blocks this goal with inappropriate fees and membership requirements is being petty and small minded.
Soap box off.
A few things must be done as the AMA says (such as the Safety Code), but, lets not give up freedom of choice. The last thing we need is the AMA telling folks how to run their clubs.
JR
08-10-2003 | 02:42 AM
#95
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From: lockhart,
TX
J_R
Hey J_R,
First why are you attacking Guy with the UMA I contacted him at your request to find out coverage. I did however mistype the officer thing i mint to say the staff is only interested in a profit. And there are still many issues you left unaddressed like why the staff are paid so much if it is nonprofit. Now you totally passed over the fact that they don't put very much back in to the hobby. I think you may has misunderstood the point of the last post. It was to make clear that for a nonprofit organization they are sure making you and i do the foot work while they stuff money in there pockets. How many in the staff are unpaid all answer for you they are all paid. As a matter of fact how many are in the staff do you know i don't they only list the top five. Also the district vp's are reimbursed for there travel fee's I do understand that they could not possibly cover as much as the clubs can. They could do more things to help the hobby not hurt. I don't feel i attacked you at all and hope you don't feel that way. The root of the trouble is at the staff level not the members other then sometimes the member do read in to things more then they are. We all do have some trouble at the club level but we do have an option to know who we are dealing with. The AMA uses big business tactic's and i am not fond of that again that if my option." I do not" however feel I'm being ripped off in any way i am just expressing my feeling to get the AMA back into the purpose they were founded for. Hope you can understand and relate to the under involvement of the AMA at the sport level. In 23 years I have had no contact with the AMA other then writing the check each year again my option. But in the 23 years the AMA has not tried to contact any club i have been in to do anything directly at the club level. If i am paying for more then insurance why has the AMA not come forth to any club Ive been involved with and offer to do something for us at the club level. We as individuals have to make it better the staff of the AMA are not and wont until we stand up and do something about it. It is our responsibility to keep the hobby alive and help our youth understand that its not about the AMA its about having a safe fun time. I mean lets get the AMA back to the club level and go from there. It would not take much to visit a few clubs a month to help encourage the youth to participate in the hobby more. Or to let the club know how to promote at a community level and who to contact. You know there is just to much left out for the individual. Most people would like to help someone Else with given opportunity. After all our children will be in our shoes one day and i personally want to make it the best i can for all of them.
First why are you attacking Guy with the UMA I contacted him at your request to find out coverage. I did however mistype the officer thing i mint to say the staff is only interested in a profit. And there are still many issues you left unaddressed like why the staff are paid so much if it is nonprofit. Now you totally passed over the fact that they don't put very much back in to the hobby. I think you may has misunderstood the point of the last post. It was to make clear that for a nonprofit organization they are sure making you and i do the foot work while they stuff money in there pockets. How many in the staff are unpaid all answer for you they are all paid. As a matter of fact how many are in the staff do you know i don't they only list the top five. Also the district vp's are reimbursed for there travel fee's I do understand that they could not possibly cover as much as the clubs can. They could do more things to help the hobby not hurt. I don't feel i attacked you at all and hope you don't feel that way. The root of the trouble is at the staff level not the members other then sometimes the member do read in to things more then they are. We all do have some trouble at the club level but we do have an option to know who we are dealing with. The AMA uses big business tactic's and i am not fond of that again that if my option." I do not" however feel I'm being ripped off in any way i am just expressing my feeling to get the AMA back into the purpose they were founded for. Hope you can understand and relate to the under involvement of the AMA at the sport level. In 23 years I have had no contact with the AMA other then writing the check each year again my option. But in the 23 years the AMA has not tried to contact any club i have been in to do anything directly at the club level. If i am paying for more then insurance why has the AMA not come forth to any club Ive been involved with and offer to do something for us at the club level. We as individuals have to make it better the staff of the AMA are not and wont until we stand up and do something about it. It is our responsibility to keep the hobby alive and help our youth understand that its not about the AMA its about having a safe fun time. I mean lets get the AMA back to the club level and go from there. It would not take much to visit a few clubs a month to help encourage the youth to participate in the hobby more. Or to let the club know how to promote at a community level and who to contact. You know there is just to much left out for the individual. Most people would like to help someone Else with given opportunity. After all our children will be in our shoes one day and i personally want to make it the best i can for all of them.
08-10-2003 | 03:36 AM
#96
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
hotrod468
I am not attacking you. I genuinely thought that you had been misinformed by Guy. As you are obviously aware, the AMA officers are not paid. They do recieve between about $8000 and $15000 a year to cover their districts. Most of them have to add to that out of their own pockets to cover their expenses. I know that your D8 VP, Sandy Frank does.
Insurance laws prohibit coverage of family to family liability claims because the the potential for fraud. This may vary from state to state, but, it is that way in California and, I believe, it is that way across the country.
I am not sure why you feel the AMA staff is over paid. I have no idea how much any individual on the staff is paid. You could be right, or wrong. I have no idea, and the numbers are not broken out in the AMA financial statement. My IMPRESSION is that they are paid a professional wage. They are not paid minimum wage. The individual amounts are considered a private matter, as with any business. Yes, they do have a retirement program. I am not familiar with it's terms.
The staff does not set the budget for the AMA, nor does it control the income (primarily dues). I won't say there is no incentive for them because I do not know. I can not believe that their incomes are based on any sort of incentive. The EC.. the unpaid officers.. control that.
Unlike you, I have had the opportunity to contact the staff at HQ on many occasions. I have always found them helpful and professional.
Also, unlike you, I am out here in CA in Dist X. My VP , Rich Hanson, does an excellent job of getting around a huge area. He also does a great job of appointing AVP's that are geographically dispersed. Most clubs out here have seen someone from the AMA. If a club requests a visit, it will be scheduled as soon as possible. Some clubs, of course, are not interested in seeing anyone. The AMA VP and AVP's out here are also active in visiting events. Actually, I don't understand how they can cover as much ground as they do. I can not speak to what your VP and his AVP's do. I am not there. Has your club ever requested Sandy to visit?
The AMA gave a club very close to me $10000 to help them build a field. (I am not a member of that club). Two years later, the club was the largest in the country. The AMA has a program for clubs that will help clubs with capital improvements. Your club must apply, the AMA will not come looking for your club. When you say that the AMA has never contacted your club, I am assuming you mean in person. The club is sent a recharter package each year. Some of the things the AMA does for clubs is outlined in that package. If the club contact is not reading the information sent him by the AMA, that may be the reason your club is unaware of the services that the AMA offers. As a matter of fact, the AMA does considerably more than one mailing to your club. Get on someone to read what the AMA sends.
The AMA is very much pursuing the original goals of the organization. In my opinion, maybe too much so. Things have changed and the AMA is changing, but, as you pointed out, it is a large organization, and it takes time.
Please do not take the fact that I support the AMA as an attack on you.
You are doing a great job of highlighting my major gripe about the AMA. They have not been effective in communicating with the membership at the individual level. This year, they even made the individual member request a 2003 membership manual, instead, sending what amounts to a color advertisement. Posting the Membership Manual on the AMA site is a poor second to receiving one in the mail. Let there be no question: I do not think the AMA does everything right.
If you feel that the local AMA officials are not doing what they should be, there is something you can do about it NOW.. this year. Vote. Sandy Frank is up for re-election. If you feel he is not serving your interests, get out and support someone else. It is, truly, the only thing we can do to change the AMA.
JR
I am not attacking you. I genuinely thought that you had been misinformed by Guy. As you are obviously aware, the AMA officers are not paid. They do recieve between about $8000 and $15000 a year to cover their districts. Most of them have to add to that out of their own pockets to cover their expenses. I know that your D8 VP, Sandy Frank does.
Insurance laws prohibit coverage of family to family liability claims because the the potential for fraud. This may vary from state to state, but, it is that way in California and, I believe, it is that way across the country.
I am not sure why you feel the AMA staff is over paid. I have no idea how much any individual on the staff is paid. You could be right, or wrong. I have no idea, and the numbers are not broken out in the AMA financial statement. My IMPRESSION is that they are paid a professional wage. They are not paid minimum wage. The individual amounts are considered a private matter, as with any business. Yes, they do have a retirement program. I am not familiar with it's terms.
The staff does not set the budget for the AMA, nor does it control the income (primarily dues). I won't say there is no incentive for them because I do not know. I can not believe that their incomes are based on any sort of incentive. The EC.. the unpaid officers.. control that.
Unlike you, I have had the opportunity to contact the staff at HQ on many occasions. I have always found them helpful and professional.
Also, unlike you, I am out here in CA in Dist X. My VP , Rich Hanson, does an excellent job of getting around a huge area. He also does a great job of appointing AVP's that are geographically dispersed. Most clubs out here have seen someone from the AMA. If a club requests a visit, it will be scheduled as soon as possible. Some clubs, of course, are not interested in seeing anyone. The AMA VP and AVP's out here are also active in visiting events. Actually, I don't understand how they can cover as much ground as they do. I can not speak to what your VP and his AVP's do. I am not there. Has your club ever requested Sandy to visit?
The AMA gave a club very close to me $10000 to help them build a field. (I am not a member of that club). Two years later, the club was the largest in the country. The AMA has a program for clubs that will help clubs with capital improvements. Your club must apply, the AMA will not come looking for your club. When you say that the AMA has never contacted your club, I am assuming you mean in person. The club is sent a recharter package each year. Some of the things the AMA does for clubs is outlined in that package. If the club contact is not reading the information sent him by the AMA, that may be the reason your club is unaware of the services that the AMA offers. As a matter of fact, the AMA does considerably more than one mailing to your club. Get on someone to read what the AMA sends.
The AMA is very much pursuing the original goals of the organization. In my opinion, maybe too much so. Things have changed and the AMA is changing, but, as you pointed out, it is a large organization, and it takes time.
Please do not take the fact that I support the AMA as an attack on you.
You are doing a great job of highlighting my major gripe about the AMA. They have not been effective in communicating with the membership at the individual level. This year, they even made the individual member request a 2003 membership manual, instead, sending what amounts to a color advertisement. Posting the Membership Manual on the AMA site is a poor second to receiving one in the mail. Let there be no question: I do not think the AMA does everything right.
If you feel that the local AMA officials are not doing what they should be, there is something you can do about it NOW.. this year. Vote. Sandy Frank is up for re-election. If you feel he is not serving your interests, get out and support someone else. It is, truly, the only thing we can do to change the AMA.
JR
08-10-2003 | 04:07 AM
#97
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From: Corona, CA,
Ama
hotrod
By the way, the AMA site is not my favorite thing about the AMA. I am not sure where you looked and maybe it's not easy to find, but take a look at this listing of AMA staff. I think you will find somewhat more than 5 of them, and each has a phone extension where you can call them, as well as what they do.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...BD65CDD1087E4E
By the way, the AMA site is not my favorite thing about the AMA. I am not sure where you looked and maybe it's not easy to find, but take a look at this listing of AMA staff. I think you will find somewhat more than 5 of them, and each has a phone extension where you can call them, as well as what they do.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...BD65CDD1087E4E
08-10-2003 | 04:54 AM
#98
My Feedback: (3)
Ama
Originally posted by J_R
hotrod468
I am not attacking you. I genuinely thought that you had been misinformed by Guy. As you are obviously aware, the AMA officers are not paid. They do recieve between about $8000 and $15000 a year to cover their districts. Most of them have to add to that out of their own pockets to cover their expenses. I know that your D8 VP, Sandy Frank does.
Insurance laws prohibit coverage of family to family liability claims because the the potential for fraud. This may vary from state to state, but, it is that way in California and, I believe, it is that way across the country.
I am not sure why you feel the AMA staff is over paid. I have no idea how much any individual on the staff is paid. You could be right, or wrong. I have no idea, and the numbers are not broken out in the AMA financial statement. My IMPRESSION is that they are paid a professional wage. They are not paid minimum wage. The individual amounts are considered a private matter, as with any business. Yes, they do have a retirement program. I am not familiar with it's terms.
The staff does not set the budget for the AMA, nor does it control the income (primarily dues). I won't say there is no incentive for them because I do not know. I can not believe that their incomes are based on any sort of incentive. The EC.. the unpaid officers.. control that.
Unlike you, I have had the opportunity to contact the staff at HQ on many occasions. I have always found them helpful and professional.
Also, unlike you, I am out here in CA in Dist X. My VP , Rich Hanson, does an excellent job of getting around a huge area. He also does a great job of appointing AVP's that are geographically dispersed. Most clubs out here have seen someone from the AMA. If a club requests a visit, it will be scheduled as soon as possible. Some clubs, of course, are not interested in seeing anyone. The AMA VP and AVP's out here are also active in visiting events. Actually, I don't understand how they can cover as much ground as they do. I can not speak to what your VP and his AVP's do. I am not there. Has your club ever requested Sandy to visit?
The AMA gave a club very close to me $10000 to help them build a field. (I am not a member of that club). Two years later, the club was the largest in the country. The AMA has a program for clubs that will help clubs with capital improvements. Your club must apply, the AMA will not come looking for your club. When you say that the AMA has never contacted your club, I am assuming you mean in person. The club is sent a recharter package each year. Some of the things the AMA does for clubs is outlined in that package. If the club contact is not reading the information sent him by the AMA, that may be the reason your club is unaware of the services that the AMA offers. As a matter of fact, the AMA does considerably more than one mailing to your club. Get on someone to read what the AMA sends.
The AMA is very much pursuing the original goals of the organization. In my opinion, maybe too much so. Things have changed and the AMA is changing, but, as you pointed out, it is a large organization, and it takes time.
Please do not take the fact that I support the AMA as an attack on you.
You are doing a great job of highlighting my major gripe about the AMA. They have not been effective in communicating with the membership at the individual level. This year, they even made the individual member request a 2003 membership manual, instead, sending what amounts to a color advertisement. Posting the Membership Manual on the AMA site is a poor second to receiving one in the mail. Let there be no question: I do not think the AMA does everything right.
If you feel that the local AMA officials are not doing what they should be, there is something you can do about it NOW.. this year. Vote. Sandy Frank is up for re-election. If you feel he is not serving your interests, get out and support someone else. It is, truly, the only thing we can do to change the AMA.
JR
hotrod468
I am not attacking you. I genuinely thought that you had been misinformed by Guy. As you are obviously aware, the AMA officers are not paid. They do recieve between about $8000 and $15000 a year to cover their districts. Most of them have to add to that out of their own pockets to cover their expenses. I know that your D8 VP, Sandy Frank does.
Insurance laws prohibit coverage of family to family liability claims because the the potential for fraud. This may vary from state to state, but, it is that way in California and, I believe, it is that way across the country.
I am not sure why you feel the AMA staff is over paid. I have no idea how much any individual on the staff is paid. You could be right, or wrong. I have no idea, and the numbers are not broken out in the AMA financial statement. My IMPRESSION is that they are paid a professional wage. They are not paid minimum wage. The individual amounts are considered a private matter, as with any business. Yes, they do have a retirement program. I am not familiar with it's terms.
The staff does not set the budget for the AMA, nor does it control the income (primarily dues). I won't say there is no incentive for them because I do not know. I can not believe that their incomes are based on any sort of incentive. The EC.. the unpaid officers.. control that.
Unlike you, I have had the opportunity to contact the staff at HQ on many occasions. I have always found them helpful and professional.
Also, unlike you, I am out here in CA in Dist X. My VP , Rich Hanson, does an excellent job of getting around a huge area. He also does a great job of appointing AVP's that are geographically dispersed. Most clubs out here have seen someone from the AMA. If a club requests a visit, it will be scheduled as soon as possible. Some clubs, of course, are not interested in seeing anyone. The AMA VP and AVP's out here are also active in visiting events. Actually, I don't understand how they can cover as much ground as they do. I can not speak to what your VP and his AVP's do. I am not there. Has your club ever requested Sandy to visit?
The AMA gave a club very close to me $10000 to help them build a field. (I am not a member of that club). Two years later, the club was the largest in the country. The AMA has a program for clubs that will help clubs with capital improvements. Your club must apply, the AMA will not come looking for your club. When you say that the AMA has never contacted your club, I am assuming you mean in person. The club is sent a recharter package each year. Some of the things the AMA does for clubs is outlined in that package. If the club contact is not reading the information sent him by the AMA, that may be the reason your club is unaware of the services that the AMA offers. As a matter of fact, the AMA does considerably more than one mailing to your club. Get on someone to read what the AMA sends.
The AMA is very much pursuing the original goals of the organization. In my opinion, maybe too much so. Things have changed and the AMA is changing, but, as you pointed out, it is a large organization, and it takes time.
Please do not take the fact that I support the AMA as an attack on you.
You are doing a great job of highlighting my major gripe about the AMA. They have not been effective in communicating with the membership at the individual level. This year, they even made the individual member request a 2003 membership manual, instead, sending what amounts to a color advertisement. Posting the Membership Manual on the AMA site is a poor second to receiving one in the mail. Let there be no question: I do not think the AMA does everything right.
If you feel that the local AMA officials are not doing what they should be, there is something you can do about it NOW.. this year. Vote. Sandy Frank is up for re-election. If you feel he is not serving your interests, get out and support someone else. It is, truly, the only thing we can do to change the AMA.
JR
Clearly we cannot expect the AMA staff to work for free, nor can we expect them to do what we would not. I don't think there is a problem there, but we clearly do have a communications problem within the AMA and District VIII as you have noticed.
The AMA has a communications problem with the membership and it seem particularly bad with the new members. We need to take lots of different actions to make sure the new folks know what the AMA is (and that is NOT an insurance company) and what it is good for.
The AMA needs to share with the local clubs different things that can be done to solidify the local clubs position in the community. Moving your club into the community spotlight, even if only for 5 minutes once or twice a year, makes a big difference in getting flying sites and keeping them. The AMA needs to share with the local clubs the ideas of things to do to prevent insurance losses, personal injuries from things other than models, and development ideas. Most of those things the AMA already has a reasonable handle on but no real method of presentation. That is the first thing that needs to be worked on because that is what the modeler on the flight line needs most.
As JR noted, the AMA DVP is up for re-election this time. That means the communications problems he has created in District VIII by taking up residence in Muncie so much of the time during the summer can be considered. We have two different chances to decide if we want a snowbird DVP!
Horrace Cain and Sandy Frank both took actions that appear to have put the Nominations Committee under some stress by nominating their friends to run with them. I think both of them hoped the other would be left off the ballot and room made for one of the shills. Horrace and Sandy both leave the district for most of the summer. I guess it is too hot for them here <G>.
Mike Moss launched a run after some conversations in February, but he seems to be uninterested in help from others in the district. At least he ignored e-mails freely offering help from this side of the district. I am concerned that his approach will be no better than we already have.
For years Sandy Frank has claimed the AMA was the glue that held modelers together. For just about as long I seem to have made him mad by pointing out that it is the exactly other way around. Modelers provide the glue that binds the AMA together. After considering the choices we have in District VIII, I (and several others) came to the conclusion that NONE OF THE ABOVE would do.
After more discussion, I have launched a write in campaign that you are invited to help with. There are over 200 clubs in District VIII, so I can't promise to visit every club as there simply is not enough time. However I can promise that each and every club in the district will have a much closer and direct association with the AMA through ACTIVE AVP's. I will travel, but only to events to visit and listen to you while we fly rather than lecture and politic.
Thanks.
08-10-2003 | 05:42 AM
#99
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From: lockhart,
TX
Jim
Thanks for your overview of things it is refreshing to hear some one with similar views. As some one that has been involved in the hobby for several years i have seen how much people can reward from it. I have also seen how much a club can grow over the years and what kind of things can be done for the youth of the community. In my youth i was introduced to it and recognized by every one in the club this was an AMA club in 1980. this was the Davis Ca. club which is now probably one of the biggest in Ca. now i would think merging with Woodland. These days the clubs tend to shoo the youth away and give a big attitude quoting things they think the AMA has projected. Now i know i have made my fair share of assumptions to but not to hurt the hobby i hope. If it is one thing that should be in the by-law it is to condemn this type of behavior. With my experience as a sport flier participating at fly-in's in district XIII most of the pilots are of good nature but the officers do need some improvement. I do think this does fall back on the AMA because these people represent them directly. The conduct of the officers should be a issue looked at and is not. It is one thing to give the impression that you are open and willing to what it takes for the hobby. But when you present your self as some one that is better in some way because you have a label thats not right. You know i have also sense some of these guys drunk flying planes wearing there AMA ID tag at a private invite event i attended for the last couple of years. This is totally unacceptable we all know what can happen. Needless to say next year my family will not attend that one. Hopefully we can all make it better before it all comes crashing down. These are just some of the things that should be addressed and there is a long ways to go as we both know. I would guess that you are the shoe in if you are you have my vote just let me know when and where and you will have it.
