Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > AMA Discussions
Reload this Page >

Is an alternative to the AMA finally here?

Notices
AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

Is an alternative to the AMA finally here?

Old 07-14-2016, 11:11 AM
  #1  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Is an alternative to the AMA finally here?

If so, where is it? If not, why?

About 6 months one person made a passing reference to being invited to an exclusive "invite only" type of organization that was ostensibly an alternative to the AMA. When asked for further details, he would give none. In retrospect, it was probably a hoax all along. Not a word about it since then, even after being asked.

After much discussion in the numerous AMA threads it's clear some folks aren't happy with the AMA. I tend to think it's actually a small, even minute amount of people in the AMA and even a small amount percentage wise of the membership here, but that's my opinion. The general consensus among those so unhappy with the AMA focuses around drones of course, and branches off from there. They abandoned traditional members, they are in collusion with the FAA, they are in this just for the money, and finally they are in secret cahoots with the drone manufacturers. I have yet to see any demonstrable evidence of any of that, but let's put that issue aside.

The other often repeated assertion is that the AMA is really only about insurance. That is the main function of the AMA. Insurance in case something happens. Again, that is a complete and total myth, it's so much more than that, but clearly folks can disagree on the value proposition of belonging to the AMA.

Which brings me to my question. Why is there no alternative to the AMA? It's a serious question, and one I hope will be responded to in a serious manner, absent the vitriol and personal attacks so present in many of these threads. I know some of the responses will be opinion based, ie (AMA is a monopoly that crushes any competition). As a general opinion, there is nothing to argue there. As evidence, it's lacking and nothing in the past seems to corroborates that, and I would hope the myths and outright lies might be challenged. NOT the posters, but the myths, lies, or partial truths. I would presume the SFA will come up in conversation and there are some pretty good threads here to go over what happened to that organization, some of which are documented by people who were involved in that organization. The fact that it's no longer around shouldn't obscure that fact that it was able to be formed and operated in the first place.

So that was 20 years ago. Why hasn't anything changed since then? If the premise that insurance is the only value proposition for the AMA, how is it possible nobody has been able to put together a national program based solely on that? For those fields owned by towns/cities etc, that is clearly a driving force for allowing clubs to operate. I doubt a town would care about some of the other AMA programs as long as they had the liability coverage afforded to them via a policy.

Of the 180,000 members, even say 150,000, and the capitalism and profit incentive involved, how has this not happened yet? Strip away everything else the AMA provides via membership, and focus just on the insurance piece alone, how is it possible that a person or group of people aren't able to make this happen? Insurance companies are hungry for business, especially for commercial accounts. This would be a nice one no?

I'll throw my general thoughts out there on why since I would immediately be asked for it if it wasn't there.

Simply put, there is no need for an alternative. Although competition almost always favors the consumer, in this case it's doubtful without seeing the choice. While not perfect, they are the best at what they do, bar none. Yes, there are no other entities out there like them in the US, but nothing appears to be keeping any entrepreneurial person or persons from giving it a try and coming up with their own alternative. The AMA isn't perfect, why not take those things that aren't perfect, or acceptable to "most" of the members, and improve upon it.

Could it be that there really isn't all that much wrong with the AMA, and all they have to offer? Are folks willing to accept what they feel are some missteps or other issues because it's more cost effective? Is it just too daunting a task to think about or try to come up with a viable alternative? Will they just wait for someone else to do it, and then consider joining? Some have predicted the membership numbers in the AMA will drop in the next year "time will tell" they say, more or less predicting a drop. Wouldn't that be the time to go after those disaffected members and try to get them to join a new and better alternative?

Would love to get an update on the secretive members only invite program if anyone has any intel on it.
Old 07-14-2016, 12:29 PM
  #2  
init4fun
 
init4fun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,354
Received 49 Likes on 43 Posts
Default

...

Last edited by init4fun; 08-15-2016 at 09:06 AM.
Old 07-14-2016, 01:15 PM
  #3  
ira d
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Maricopa County AZ
Posts: 3,249
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

In order for another RC CBO to start up they would have to get most if not all existing RC clubs to charter with them so that their members would have a place to fly. They would have to offer more benefits than the AMA
at a lower cost in order to get a foothold into the business.
Old 07-14-2016, 01:22 PM
  #4  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by init4fun
An honest and fair question that deserves a respectful response .

It is my belief that there are not yet any other model aircraft organizations like the AMA because there just aren't enough of us to make more than one organization financially worthwhile . What , are we 200K or so members ? After 80 or so years ? We just don't have the numbers that would support competing organizations . I do believe as someone mentioned in a different thread , if ever a new UAS organization were to be formed , it would cater exclusively to the BLOS FPV community who will be doing it commercially (both multirotor FPV and fixed wing FPV) so as to focus solely on the needs of that flight category apart from the LOS category which is now well represented by the AMA . Right now our AMA represents us LOS flyers only and there is , that I know of , no one single organization of similar structure advocating for the commercial UAS BLOS operations , and thus an opening and a need for such an organization . Another factor is that although the negative complaints naturally draw the most attention , it is my belief that most are at least satisfied enough with what the AMA is doing/has done as to not "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as it were . Sure , no man made thing is ever perfect , there is room for improvement in anything we create , AMA included , but in general it serves the need it was created for effectively and I can't see where a second organization would have had any different outcome , FAA wise for instance . Then there is the trend of declining club membership of all kinds of clubs , beyond the model aircraft world . Do you know that membership in the stamp collector's version of the AMA , the "American Philatelic Society" peaked around 1990 at around 57K members and has declined today to right around 31K members , an almost 50% drop ! Other organizations seem to be in similar situations and I believe this has more to do with people than it has to do with the organizations themselves . Oh , and , BTW , No one I know of has received any invites into any super secret CBO , myself included . I did hear of some "don't fly stupid" CBO but I thought that was more on the joke side than an actual real living , breathing CBO .

So there you have it , my thoughts on why there is no "second" AMA ....
Thanks for your comments.

I agree the Dont Fly Stupid CBO is more of a spoof than anything. I will say it's well done satire for the most part. I think the economics of another organization don't look appealing enough right now, although back with the SFA was started I think there were less people in the AMA than there are now. In this day of Go Fund Me requests that garner $50,000 in funds for potato salad, I would have thought someone might have given it a shot. As for declining memberships in other things, ya, I guess that is true. So many other groups and things going on now to get folks attention. I'm guessing the Pokemon clubs are ballooning to incredibly high numbers right now. Come to think of it perhaps we should bury some or create some figures (clearly I have no idea how this stuff works) and draw some traffic to our fields.
Old 07-14-2016, 01:32 PM
  #5  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by ira d
In order for another RC CBO to start up they would have to get most if not all existing RC clubs to charter with them so that their members would have a place to fly. They would have to offer more benefits than the AMA
at a lower cost in order to get a foothold into the business.
A first place to target might be those clubs that are privately owned, that can and do control their own destiny when it comes to making decisions. I hear there are already organized clubs out there that do not require AMA. As for the benefits, I wonder about that. I can't disagree that for many members of the AMA they are here because they have to have AMA membership to fly, and more importantly might only look at the AMA as a means to insurance, be it primary or excess (in some cases it is primary). So if that's the case and an alternative was created that had matching liability coverages, but at half the price of the AMA membership, I'm guessing a good percentage of folks would take a shot at that. The SFA managed to do it 20 years ago, I think there is far more competition now with insurance carriers and hungry agents! I started looking into pricing for just liability coverage last year, some agents wouldn't touch it, a few said it would be extremely difficult to quote, only one put a ballpark figure on it, about $15,000.00 per year for a club with 200 members.
Old 07-14-2016, 02:49 PM
  #6  
Chris P. Bacon
Banned
My Feedback: (4)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by porcia83
If so, where is it? If not, why?
IMHO the short answer is it's simply not sustainable economically to have more than one non-commercial sUAS CBO. In the big scheme of things, the hobby industry is a small potato with little growth.
Old 07-14-2016, 04:32 PM
  #7  
franklin_m
 
franklin_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 4,561
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by init4fun
Do you know that membership in the stamp collector's version of the AMA , the "American Philatelic Society" peaked around 1990 at around 57K members and has declined today to right around 31K members , an almost 50% drop.
Just up the road from me. Located in an old match factory if you can believe that.
Old 07-14-2016, 05:47 PM
  #8  
mongo
My Feedback: (15)
 
mongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 3,498
Received 80 Likes on 70 Posts
Default

just as there was no need for another org to replace IMMA when it finally died, there is no need for another org to crop up to replace/compete with AMA for a dieing market.
just let it die in dignity, not all the infighting about why and what coulda/shoulda be done to try and save it.
Old 07-14-2016, 06:28 PM
  #9  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by mongo
just as there was no need for another org to replace IMMA when it finally died, there is no need for another org to crop up to replace/compete with AMA for a dieing market.
just let it die in dignity, not all the infighting about why and what coulda/shoulda be done to try and save it.
IMAA was a SIG within a CBO. Like many things, the popularity of that style of flying goes up and down, ultimately that org was mismanaged and poorly run, and went bye bye. They actually did try to bring that back, at least the mag, but the effort failed as well.

Not sure if you're saying the AMA market is a dying one though? Even of there isn't a huge market, it would seem that if there is a possibility to provide a service to a group and make a profit in the meanwhile, someone would give it a shot.
Old 07-15-2016, 01:52 PM
  #10  
PLANE JIM
My Feedback: (109)
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: AT THE AIRPORT
Posts: 2,005
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

It would need to be invitation only to keep POOOOOOOOOOORCIA out!
Old 07-15-2016, 03:13 PM
  #11  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by PLANE JIM
It would need to be invitation only to keep POOOOOOOOOOORCIA out!


I'll get the waaambulance rollin...I'm heartbroken, somehow I'll come out of this o/k.

So how is the whole thing going? Is this still just a pipe dream of the disaffected, you sorta slipped there and said "would be invite, not it is invite"...oops. So hard to keep it all straight. LoL. Ultimately it looks like it was just a big lie.

I promise not to tell anyone, I'll keep it between me and...the membership of the Secret Star Chamber.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	waaaaaaa.jpg
Views:	541
Size:	33.5 KB
ID:	2173060  
Old 07-15-2016, 03:56 PM
  #12  
Chris P. Bacon
Banned
My Feedback: (4)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by PLANE JIM
It would need to be invitation only to keep POOOOOOOOOOORCIA out!
He's the admin for the private group!
Old 07-15-2016, 05:57 PM
  #13  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
He's the admin for the private group!
Table for one please!

An absolutely genius business and marketing plan. Invite as few people as possible, and don't tell anyone about the club. Brilliant, it just reeks exclusivity! Can't wait to see the concept pitched on The Shark Tank. Maybe it was hyperbole? Or, it was a lie. A lie is a lie is a lie.
Old 07-16-2016, 05:08 PM
  #14  
cj_rumley
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Aguanga, CA
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mongo
just as there was no need for another org to replace IMMA when it finally died, there is no need for another org to crop up to replace/compete with AMA for a dieing market.
just let it die in dignity, not all the infighting about why and what coulda/shoulda be done to try and save it.
I'd prefer the none-of-the-above option, which for many modelers (those that need dedicated and improved facilities, and so clubs with mandated sole-source insurance) simply does not exist. Those that don't need model scale FBOs don't need a CBO, and most opt not to join one.
Old 08-12-2016, 04:53 AM
  #15  
rcmiket
 
rcmiket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 5,277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

https://verifly.com/howitworks.html

Mike
Old 08-12-2016, 06:10 AM
  #16  
porcia83
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 7,269
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Great for the commercial drone user, doesn't really offer much for the hobbyists.
Old 09-25-2016, 06:54 PM
  #17  
w9jcm
Junior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Carson City NV
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default ama and such

Well I read this thread and albeit a little old I am putting in my 2 cents worth. I have been in the industry as producer of DVDs ( not anymore) and been flying RC junk for 25 plus years along with full scale and part 107 too. Been in and been out of membership with the AMA. And now I will be perm out of it because I am just tired of the politics within the upper echelon. Go look up what it takes to actually run for VP or even President of the AMA. You can run for President of the United States easier. I don't think they are helping anyone except themselves.

So I live rural and have 5 acres which is next to another 5 acres and I am putting in my own runway. I don't fly at any RC clubs in my area because they are all A holes and clicky. I for one will not put up with having some so called expert in a club analyze my flying to see if I need further instruction to fly with them. Things like this. Also attitudes about drones are horrible and its almost like I need to start a Drone Lives Matter group. Bottom line is I am going private (pretty much have been for a long time) and if I invite some friends over to fly at my nice site I really don't care if they have AMA or not. I have never heard anyone getting a insurance check from AMA insurance anyhow. I don't need it I don't want it. Sounds like I am miffed yup I am but its a long time coming. It just comes down to are you going to sit around a whine about it and take it? Or man up and do something about it. I choose the later. And for all your AMA backers that are saying oh what if someone gets killed or injured at my property? IF you do something stupid and hurt yourself you pay, if you hurt someone else you pay too. If you don't have money you get sued no difference if you have AMA insurance or not believe me there is none. I bet where there was so called claims with the AMA which I would love to see, there are the same amount of claims and law suits to go right up against. So I will take my chances and enjoy not paying the AMA what is it 78 bucks a year for a crappy magazine that never tells you if something is a POS or not. Heck and maybe I might even have some fun flys here with people that can actually pull there heads out of there butts and be friendly, normal and know how to enjoy a hobby.
Old 09-26-2016, 06:57 AM
  #18  
init4fun
 
init4fun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,354
Received 49 Likes on 43 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by w9jcm
Well I read this thread and albeit a little old I am putting in my 2 cents worth. I have been in the industry as producer of DVDs ( not anymore) and been flying RC junk for 25 plus years along with full scale and part 107 too. Been in and been out of membership with the AMA. And now I will be perm out of it because I am just tired of the politics within the upper echelon. Go look up what it takes to actually run for VP or even President of the AMA. You can run for President of the United States easier. I don't think they are helping anyone except themselves.

So I live rural and have 5 acres which is next to another 5 acres and I am putting in my own runway. I don't fly at any RC clubs in my area because they are all A holes and clicky. I for one will not put up with having some so called expert in a club analyze my flying to see if I need further instruction to fly with them. Things like this. Also attitudes about drones are horrible and its almost like I need to start a Drone Lives Matter group. Bottom line is I am going private (pretty much have been for a long time) and if I invite some friends over to fly at my nice site I really don't care if they have AMA or not. I have never heard anyone getting a insurance check from AMA insurance anyhow. I don't need it I don't want it. Sounds like I am miffed yup I am but its a long time coming. It just comes down to are you going to sit around a whine about it and take it? Or man up and do something about it. I choose the later. And for all your AMA backers that are saying oh what if someone gets killed or injured at my property? IF you do something stupid and hurt yourself you pay, if you hurt someone else you pay too. If you don't have money you get sued no difference if you have AMA insurance or not believe me there is none. I bet where there was so called claims with the AMA which I would love to see, there are the same amount of claims and law suits to go right up against. So I will take my chances and enjoy not paying the AMA what is it 78 bucks a year for a crappy magazine that never tells you if something is a POS or not. Heck and maybe I might even have some fun flys here with people that can actually pull there heads out of there butts and be friendly, normal and know how to enjoy a hobby.
Hi W9jcm ,

While your entitled to your opinion and have stated your position well , I believe you couldn't be more wrong about the AMA insurance being non existent as your "believe me there is none" statement alludes to . Every so often , when the subject of AMA insurance comes up it's usually brought up to bemoan the fact that it is a secondary policy which only pays when all other insurance has failed to cover an incident . It is then that the few cases of the AMA paying claims that are publicly known about are brought up and they do serve as proof that the AMA insurance does indeed exist and does pay when the conditions for payment have been met . I really do feel sad for you that your club experience has been so unfriendly and yes sir while there are folks of every walk of life that are power hungry meanies there are also clubs where friendship and helpfulness rather than bullying can be found , I know because I belong to one of them . Just please don't forget the AMA and all RC clubs are made up of people , and people themselves can be a rather "inconsistent" breed , as a quick read around most of these threads will allude to . Some will help ya , some will slap ya , and some will walk on by without so much as a glance in your direction , but that is not and can not be taken as an indictment of all of the various groups folks belong to , because you ARE gonna find that good & bad among all groups of all types even far beyond the model aircraft world .

In closing , I'd like to say that in my opinion , there is no right or wrong about AMA membership , it is a good fit for some and not as good of a fit for others and I'd never diss you for not finding value in it . Your last sentence about "people who can pull their heads outta their butts" sure seems a bigger diss to the AMA membership than I feel is deserved by the far greater majority of AMA members I have encountered in over 50 years of flying model aircraft . The AMA does not fit well for you ? Ok , I get that , but does that poor fit really need to be accompanied by the backhanded slap you gave to the majority of decent AMA members ?

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.