FAA: CBO Membership NOT required to comply with 336
07-26-2016, 08:52 PM
#51
Banned
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great, we're all set. Now we can move on, I hope. Without going to far off topic I suspect now that the hobby is moving forward unaffected in large part to predicted legislation, perhaps we'll focus on say, the upcoming AMA elections. Candidate elections and their platforms should be out soon. Should be interesting, they always are. 
07-26-2016, 09:28 PM
#53
No slip. Logic goes like this: Law says that you can't fly a "model aircraft" greater than 55lbs unless inspected by a CBO (a.k.a. AMA). AMA has told me directly they won't inspect non-member aircraft. Thus if I want to fly a model greater than 55lbs in the public airspace, I have to join AMA. So in fact, AMA is acting as a gatekeeper to what I can and cannot do in the airspace, and it's based on whether I pay them $75 or not.
So what was the context that explains the statement "We've made it clear, that to operate within our safety program, you must join the AMA and affirm your willingness to comply with our safety code and related safety guidelines. [emphasis added]"
How exactly am I misinterpreting that statement? It seems pretty clear.
And then there's this one....
"Chad Budreau July 12, 2016 at 13:13 Anyone is free to read and comply with parts of our safety program,but to fully satisfy all of 336 and to operate within AMA’s safety program you must be a member. [emphasis added]"
So now we have to misinterpret yet another statement? That one too seems pretty clear.
So what was the context that explains the statement "We've made it clear, that to operate within our safety program, you must join the AMA and affirm your willingness to comply with our safety code and related safety guidelines. [emphasis added]"
How exactly am I misinterpreting that statement? It seems pretty clear.
And then there's this one....
"Chad Budreau July 12, 2016 at 13:13 Anyone is free to read and comply with parts of our safety program,but to fully satisfy all of 336 and to operate within AMA’s safety program you must be a member. [emphasis added]"
So now we have to misinterpret yet another statement? That one too seems pretty clear.
the law is won’t bother modelers just because they are not AMA members.
07-27-2016, 03:23 AM
#54
Thread Starter
IMO it really does not matter if the AMA refuses to inspect non members aircraft but what matters is will the FAA bother modelers that operate non wavered models? My hope is that the FAA seeing how flawed
the law is won’t bother modelers just because they are not AMA members.
the law is won’t bother modelers just because they are not AMA members.
07-27-2016, 04:24 AM
#56
Like I said , You don't get to play it both ways , and yet you still try to . I quoted a few of you and your buddy's sarcastic posts and mentioned the lack of respect displayed in them . And right on cue , your buddy rode in to save the day with "I have no respect for you" ,
Not what I said. If you're going to quote me at least try and get it right.
without realizing that NONE OF THE RESPONSES WERE DIRECTED TO ME !!!! He was SO quick with the insult he couldn't be bothered to check to see that all of you two's sarcastic posts I quoted were directed not at me , but at Franklin , What , you two don't respect him either ? Yes I do speak up when all Franklin wants to do is discuss facts and all YOU want to do is to discuss Franklin , how you accuse him of a 10 year grudge against the AMA and throw your veiled insults at him , and all the other personal attack BS you two sling .
The majority of his facts are based on his opinion. Try taking off the blinders sometime.
Now , need I make a nice compilation post of some of your's and your buddy's mean spirited sarcastic nonsense you've posted to all who disagree with you to prove my point here , or will the Gems I quoted earlier be enough to convince you that it really IS you , your being a jerk whether you realize it or not .
Sounds like you have your work cutout for you today. Good luck. Don't forget to included all your posts where you played God. Oh wait, those were all deleted by the admin.
It's one thing to disagree , it's quite another to behave the way you and crispy have done and if you can't see that then your right , there really ain't much else left to discuss .
So why are you still here?
Post 45 in this thread is what I'm referring to here . Proud of those posts , are ya ?
Still post after post from you with no worthwhile contribution other than your opinion on other peoples posts.
Not what I said. If you're going to quote me at least try and get it right.
without realizing that NONE OF THE RESPONSES WERE DIRECTED TO ME !!!! He was SO quick with the insult he couldn't be bothered to check to see that all of you two's sarcastic posts I quoted were directed not at me , but at Franklin , What , you two don't respect him either ? Yes I do speak up when all Franklin wants to do is discuss facts and all YOU want to do is to discuss Franklin , how you accuse him of a 10 year grudge against the AMA and throw your veiled insults at him , and all the other personal attack BS you two sling .
The majority of his facts are based on his opinion. Try taking off the blinders sometime.
Now , need I make a nice compilation post of some of your's and your buddy's mean spirited sarcastic nonsense you've posted to all who disagree with you to prove my point here , or will the Gems I quoted earlier be enough to convince you that it really IS you , your being a jerk whether you realize it or not .
Sounds like you have your work cutout for you today. Good luck. Don't forget to included all your posts where you played God. Oh wait, those were all deleted by the admin.
It's one thing to disagree , it's quite another to behave the way you and crispy have done and if you can't see that then your right , there really ain't much else left to discuss .
So why are you still here?
Post 45 in this thread is what I'm referring to here . Proud of those posts , are ya ?
Still post after post from you with no worthwhile contribution other than your opinion on other peoples posts.
07-27-2016, 04:25 AM
#57
07-27-2016, 04:32 AM
#58
Banned
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Well I guess that's what I was getting at. It feels like this one in a thousand issue is highlighted if for no other reason than to back into the same narrative, AMA=Bad. Or, looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. My prediction, the issue will come up 0.0 times.
07-27-2016, 04:46 AM
#59
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I think the AMA will find itself losing support quickly in government when legislators and regulators when they find out citizens are trying to lawfully do things in the public airspace only to be denied that privilege by the AMA because they're not members.
If AMA doesn't let me fly at one of their fields because I'm not a member...ok. If they don't let me fly in one of their competition because I'm not a member...ok. If they won't let me participate in a fun fly because I'm not a member...ok. But they don't get to decide what I can and cannot do in the public airspace based on whether or not make a $75 offering to the AMA alter.
If AMA doesn't let me fly at one of their fields because I'm not a member...ok. If they don't let me fly in one of their competition because I'm not a member...ok. If they won't let me participate in a fun fly because I'm not a member...ok. But they don't get to decide what I can and cannot do in the public airspace based on whether or not make a $75 offering to the AMA alter.
Mike.
07-27-2016, 04:49 AM
#60
Well I guess that's what I was getting at. It feels like this one in a thousand issue is highlighted if for no other reason than to back into the same narrative, AMA=Bad. Or, looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. My prediction, the issue will come up 0.0 times.
You don't see me complaining about the cost of an oil change on a Bugatti Veyron do you?
07-27-2016, 04:51 AM
#61
Thread Starter
By my count, there's 115 LMAs, including 7 that are listed on the 25 July 2016 dated list with permits that expired before that (one wonders why they weren't removed when the list was updated - attention to detail -- but that's another issue)
If we're talking about just the B29 crashes, and assuming the number of LMAs was about the same each year one of them crashed -- it's not a "one in a thousand issue" but more like 1 in 115.
If we're talking about just the B29 crashes, and assuming the number of LMAs was about the same each year one of them crashed -- it's not a "one in a thousand issue" but more like 1 in 115.
07-27-2016, 04:52 AM
#62
07-27-2016, 04:55 AM
#63
Thread Starter
I also don't suffer from any Freudian issues that drive a deep seeded "need" to fly large airplanes. I'm merely advocating for all citizens to enjoy equal privileges in the public airspace - not one set of privileges for AMA members, and another set for the unwashed masses.
07-27-2016, 04:58 AM
#64
Banned
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It will play out like it always has, despite the fear mongering and calls for doom and gloom etc. This is just another in a long line of "what ifs", and "what might happen". Here is a comment from almost 13 years ago....
To put it in a nutshell Frank lost because the membership didn't vote.Call it what you will but untill the run of the mill sport flyer is affected by how the AMA is run and how rules are changed,how money is spent(did they ask you where to build the AMA site),they will not care.Most flyers want a place to fly without a bunch of hassels or expense.As far as Sport Flyers the AMA and them got into a war of words the AMA sued and won putting Sport Flyers out of the game.All they did was offer PRIMARY INSURACE instead of YOUR HOMEOWNERS IS 1st.I've been around flying for 15 years ran into a AMA guy one time when we asked what the AMA could do to help inprove our field we were told "to have fun".I wish these people had to operate in the real world.If I gave my boss a reply like that I'd get canned.I guess my whole deal is the AMA membership is slipping and it aint going to get better untill we get new leadership wiiling to deal with 2004 instead of 1964.Times are changing and maybe the AMA should too.If I have offended anyone by what I'm saying so be it I feel the AMA should be held accountable the same way we are held accountable in our every day lives.THe AMA is here to serve us the membership.DO THEY?
So much for membership slipping. But times have changed, so has the AMA leadership, and yet here we are with almost the exact same complaints. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But there is a nugget of truth in there, the majority of people don't want any hassles, they just want a nice place to fly, and not a lot of expenses.
To put it in a nutshell Frank lost because the membership didn't vote.Call it what you will but untill the run of the mill sport flyer is affected by how the AMA is run and how rules are changed,how money is spent(did they ask you where to build the AMA site),they will not care.Most flyers want a place to fly without a bunch of hassels or expense.As far as Sport Flyers the AMA and them got into a war of words the AMA sued and won putting Sport Flyers out of the game.All they did was offer PRIMARY INSURACE instead of YOUR HOMEOWNERS IS 1st.I've been around flying for 15 years ran into a AMA guy one time when we asked what the AMA could do to help inprove our field we were told "to have fun".I wish these people had to operate in the real world.If I gave my boss a reply like that I'd get canned.I guess my whole deal is the AMA membership is slipping and it aint going to get better untill we get new leadership wiiling to deal with 2004 instead of 1964.Times are changing and maybe the AMA should too.If I have offended anyone by what I'm saying so be it I feel the AMA should be held accountable the same way we are held accountable in our every day lives.THe AMA is here to serve us the membership.DO THEY?
So much for membership slipping. But times have changed, so has the AMA leadership, and yet here we are with almost the exact same complaints. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But there is a nugget of truth in there, the majority of people don't want any hassles, they just want a nice place to fly, and not a lot of expenses.
07-27-2016, 04:59 AM
#65
I also don't suffer from any Freudian issues that drive a deep seeded "need" to fly large airplanes. I'm merely advocating for all citizens to enjoy equal privileges in the public airspace - not one set of privileges for AMA members, and another set for the unwashed masses.
07-27-2016, 05:06 AM
#66
Banned
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I also don't suffer from any Freudian issues that drive a deep seeded "need" to fly large airplanes. I'm merely advocating for all citizens to enjoy equal privileges in the public airspace - not one set of privileges for AMA members, and another set for the unwashed masses.
07-27-2016, 05:08 AM
#67
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Mike
07-27-2016, 05:14 AM
#68
Thread Starter
The FAA quoted me directly in 78636 Federal Register / Vol. 80, No. 241 / Wednesday, December 16, 2015 / Rules and Regulation:
"One individual stated that registration is an inherently governmental function that should not be ceded to any dues collecting organization. This commenter pointed out that neither the Experimental Aircraft Association nor the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association register manned aircraft."
So long as all citizens are able to enjoy the same privileges, regardless of AMA membership status, then I could care less what AMA does.
07-27-2016, 05:16 AM
#69
Thread Starter
All members have the privilege to enjoy the NAS in a safe manner, nobody has a public hold on that, and folks don't need to be part of the AMA or any other CBO to do that When it comes to 55lb planes though, I have no problem with the FAA requiring some additional scrutiny there. Makes perfect sense. Why you need to throw out labels calling those outside of the AMA "unwashed masses" seems odd, there are more people outside of the AMA enjoying the hobby than in the AMA.
07-27-2016, 05:24 AM
#70
Thread Starter
- "Anyone is free to read and comply with parts of our safety program, but to fully satisfy all of 336 and to operate within AMA’s safety program you must be a member. [emphasis added]" (Chad Budreau July 12, 2016 at 13:13)
- "We've made it clear, that to operate within our safety program, you must join the AMA and affirm your willingness to comply with our safety code and related safety guidelines [emphasis added]. (Chad Budreau July 11, 2016 AMA video)
07-27-2016, 05:54 AM
#73
Still posting the person and not the person's post , Eh ?
Well , since you seem to think it's ok now to post about the other posters , My post is that some see Franklin's posts about safety as being right on target and it's a literal shame that a highly vocal minority want to twist his advocacy for safety into some kind of anti AMA agenda . Your long running disdain for the truth when it's posted from someone's keyboard you've deemed anti AMA shows all who read your posts all they should need to know about the level of your lack of character .
Time for you to wail some more about thread purity , now that someone else has picked up on the talking about the fellow posters theme YOU opened in post #65 ...
You really are a disgrace to the organization your trying to bully everyone into finding the world's most perfect entity . Now come back and attack this with your wimpy little red font , tell me how I'm anti AMA after being in it likely longer than you've been alive , just because like all things in life I see there IS a need for improvement ! Yes Sir , Franklin DID find an area that could use improvement , the inspection of wing spars on large scale model aircraft . The smart money would use that info to build better model airplanes . The ostrich will bury his head in the sand , declare everything perfect , and not look at changing anything . All the while personally attacking the guy who brought up the safety deficiency in the first place , can't have a single reader thinking there may be an area or two of the perfect org that may need a bit of fine tuning , now can we ?
Still wanna talk about the other posters ?
Well , since you seem to think it's ok now to post about the other posters , My post is that some see Franklin's posts about safety as being right on target and it's a literal shame that a highly vocal minority want to twist his advocacy for safety into some kind of anti AMA agenda . Your long running disdain for the truth when it's posted from someone's keyboard you've deemed anti AMA shows all who read your posts all they should need to know about the level of your lack of character .
Time for you to wail some more about thread purity , now that someone else has picked up on the talking about the fellow posters theme YOU opened in post #65 ...
You really are a disgrace to the organization your trying to bully everyone into finding the world's most perfect entity . Now come back and attack this with your wimpy little red font , tell me how I'm anti AMA after being in it likely longer than you've been alive , just because like all things in life I see there IS a need for improvement ! Yes Sir , Franklin DID find an area that could use improvement , the inspection of wing spars on large scale model aircraft . The smart money would use that info to build better model airplanes . The ostrich will bury his head in the sand , declare everything perfect , and not look at changing anything . All the while personally attacking the guy who brought up the safety deficiency in the first place , can't have a single reader thinking there may be an area or two of the perfect org that may need a bit of fine tuning , now can we ?
Still wanna talk about the other posters ?
07-27-2016, 06:24 AM
#74
07-27-2016, 06:24 AM
#75
So then why is it OK for the AMA to refuse LMA certification to non-members. Charge a small fee (short of membership), heck even let the inspector keep it for his trouble. We know that other than sizing of the control surface servos, it's largely ambiguous anyway ("minimal voltage drop"), so what's the harm?