Higher altitudes for sanctioned events.
03-10-2023, 07:24 AM
#26
Please cite the section of US Code or the FARs that require insurance. Oh, that's right, the insurance requirement exists only in your mind.
I'll give you that. But the fact remains, not all will be approved.
First, saying they're in the back of MA assumes facts not in evidence, that FAA receives copies of that magazine. I doubt that. But regardless, having their own internal list of them, via the approval process, does make it considerably easier to track them down. Plus, that altitude approval is a document of record, and binding, which AMA's rag - excuse me - magazine, is not.
I guess these clubs are awash in money? Also, don't forget that will add additional requriement that one or more club members become CDs/EMs (for which AMA also charges). Lastly, 30 days in advance ... plus FAA processing time. Even more admin overhead. How many clubs are going to jump through those hoops each and every time? Remains to be seen.
Citing two isolated examples does not define a national trend.
AMA's IRS990 filings do however show a trend. Over the last ten years, 2011 - 2021 (last year I have a 990), their charter club fees are down 10.5% in constant year inflation adjusted dollars. As to membership in general, those same IRS990 reports show that the only meaningful measure of membership - membership revenue - is down over 13% across the same period.
I'll give you that. But the fact remains, not all will be approved.
First, saying they're in the back of MA assumes facts not in evidence, that FAA receives copies of that magazine. I doubt that. But regardless, having their own internal list of them, via the approval process, does make it considerably easier to track them down. Plus, that altitude approval is a document of record, and binding, which AMA's rag - excuse me - magazine, is not.
I guess these clubs are awash in money? Also, don't forget that will add additional requriement that one or more club members become CDs/EMs (for which AMA also charges). Lastly, 30 days in advance ... plus FAA processing time. Even more admin overhead. How many clubs are going to jump through those hoops each and every time? Remains to be seen.
Citing two isolated examples does not define a national trend.
AMA's IRS990 filings do however show a trend. Over the last ten years, 2011 - 2021 (last year I have a 990), their charter club fees are down 10.5% in constant year inflation adjusted dollars. As to membership in general, those same IRS990 reports show that the only meaningful measure of membership - membership revenue - is down over 13% across the same period.
FAA can find event schedules if they really wanted to. The rest of that comment is toilet matter.
Clubs are doing better then you think. Again not being a club guy puts you out of the loop. Have you ever attended a club meeting? I have many, in fact just Wednesday. My wife even stepped up to organize the annual Christmas party and given a sizable budget to do so.
Yes the hobby is in a constant decline. We all know that. You keep preaching the obvious. However you are way off base as to why. Guys are aging out and aviation is not interesting to our youth anymore. The cost of admission has nothing to do with the decline.
03-10-2023, 08:00 AM
#27
Clubs are doing better then you think. Again not being a club guy puts you out of the loop. Have you ever attended a club meeting? I have many, in fact just Wednesday. My wife even stepped up to organize the annual Christmas party and given a sizable budget to do so.
Cost of admission has nothing to do? You might want to take up that issue with your beloved org's CFO .. particularly the january meeting minutes. Something about discretionary expense and recession. But I forget, you know way more than he does about economics and human behavior.
03-10-2023, 08:24 AM
#28
Your assuming that the event waiver will require a FAR. Do you have supporting documents?
The AMA IRS filings have nothing to do with the individual clubs financial health.
Funny how you claim AMA staff so incompetent yet site their information whenever it suits you. I’m pleased that your audience isn’t large enough to fill a Starbucks.
The AMA IRS filings have nothing to do with the individual clubs financial health.
Funny how you claim AMA staff so incompetent yet site their information whenever it suits you. I’m pleased that your audience isn’t large enough to fill a Starbucks.
03-10-2023, 08:39 AM
#29
The waiver request, or whatever it's ultimately called, is a formal request by the AMA to the FAA. Even if that document is not official, the FAA's approval of a waiver to the applicable section of law IS a formal document. Thus it's binding.
A "site" is a location. I presume you refer to me citing their 990s. I CITE those because they are formal documents submitted under risk of criminal or civil prosecution. Yet again, just because they do one thing well (I'll give them that 990's are accurate) does not mean their overall processes are good. Witness people complaining about not getting ID cards. Cards sent to wrong location. Etc.
03-10-2023, 09:27 AM
#31
Hint: It doesn't. Yet you keep intimating that insurance is somehow a requirement.
03-10-2023, 10:59 AM
#33
BTW, with respect to your multiple intimations that insurance is required, did you ever find any reference to "insurance" as a requirement in US Code? In FARs? In Code of Federal Regulations? In the TRUST materials?
03-10-2023, 11:13 AM
#34
speedy seems to think that insurance is some kind of unobtanium, mystic thing that only the AMA can achieve! LOL
One can insure ANYTHING. I've bought insurance ro cover a free car that I pledged to give away at a golf tournament if someone achieved a hole-in-one on a certain hole. Brian Bosworth bought an insurance policy on his body parts. Insurance is a business of math, if one company offers it, there is another that will do it do it as well.
Astro
One can insure ANYTHING. I've bought insurance ro cover a free car that I pledged to give away at a golf tournament if someone achieved a hole-in-one on a certain hole. Brian Bosworth bought an insurance policy on his body parts. Insurance is a business of math, if one company offers it, there is another that will do it do it as well.
Astro
03-10-2023, 11:54 AM
#35
speedy seems to think that insurance is some kind of unobtanium, mystic thing that only the AMA can achieve! LOL
One can insure ANYTHING. I've bought insurance ro cover a free car that I pledged to give away at a golf tournament if someone achieved a hole-in-one on a certain hole. Brian Bosworth bought an insurance policy on his body parts. Insurance is a business of math, if one company offers it, there is another that will do it do it as well.
Astro
One can insure ANYTHING. I've bought insurance ro cover a free car that I pledged to give away at a golf tournament if someone achieved a hole-in-one on a certain hole. Brian Bosworth bought an insurance policy on his body parts. Insurance is a business of math, if one company offers it, there is another that will do it do it as well.
Astro
Last edited by franklin_m; 03-10-2023 at 12:57 PM.
03-10-2023, 04:04 PM
#36
Let’s give this one more shot to break it down to the point that a retired Naval Commander and his sidekick can understand.
The FAA and AMA work out a deal where “ Sanctioned “ events can apply for an altitude waiver.
AMA is the only CBO that sanctions events.
The key benefit of a sanction is insurance
So yes the event altitude waiver as put forth by the FAA requires a sanction which includes and additional layer of insurance.
If the two of you can’t follow that then there is little hope.
While on the subject of insurance, I have never claimed it to be unobtainable. I have claimed that you couldn’t find a policy that is comparable in coverage and price and that any R/C club will accept. If you can show proof of such a policy that a club has currently accepted as a suitable substitute then by all means bring it forward and I will gladly put the subject to bed.
The FAA and AMA work out a deal where “ Sanctioned “ events can apply for an altitude waiver.
AMA is the only CBO that sanctions events.
The key benefit of a sanction is insurance
So yes the event altitude waiver as put forth by the FAA requires a sanction which includes and additional layer of insurance.
If the two of you can’t follow that then there is little hope.
While on the subject of insurance, I have never claimed it to be unobtainable. I have claimed that you couldn’t find a policy that is comparable in coverage and price and that any R/C club will accept. If you can show proof of such a policy that a club has currently accepted as a suitable substitute then by all means bring it forward and I will gladly put the subject to bed.
03-10-2023, 04:24 PM
#37
Let’s give this one more shot to break it down to the point that a retired Naval Commander and his sidekick can understand.
The FAA and AMA work out a deal where “ Sanctioned “ events can apply for an altitude waiver.
AMA is the only CBO that sanctions events.
The key benefit of a sanction is insurance
So yes the event altitude waiver as put forth by the FAA requires a sanction which includes and additional layer of insurance.
If the two of you can’t follow that then there is little hope.
While on the subject of insurance, I have never claimed it to be unobtainable. I have claimed that you couldn’t find a policy that is comparable in coverage and price and that any R/C club will accept. If you can show proof of such a policy that a club has currently accepted as a suitable substitute then by all means bring it forward and I will gladly put the subject to bed.
The FAA and AMA work out a deal where “ Sanctioned “ events can apply for an altitude waiver.
AMA is the only CBO that sanctions events.
The key benefit of a sanction is insurance
So yes the event altitude waiver as put forth by the FAA requires a sanction which includes and additional layer of insurance.
If the two of you can’t follow that then there is little hope.
While on the subject of insurance, I have never claimed it to be unobtainable. I have claimed that you couldn’t find a policy that is comparable in coverage and price and that any R/C club will accept. If you can show proof of such a policy that a club has currently accepted as a suitable substitute then by all means bring it forward and I will gladly put the subject to bed.
Astro
03-10-2023, 04:38 PM
#38
And yet, nowhere is it required. So while it may be of value to AMA members, that does not mean it's of the same value to other CBOs.
While on the subject of insurance, I have never claimed it to be unobtainable. I have claimed that you couldn’t find a policy that is comparable in coverage and price and that any R/C club will accept. If you can show proof of such a policy that a club has currently accepted as a suitable substitute then by all means bring it forward and I will gladly put the subject to bed.
03-10-2023, 04:58 PM
#40
Franklin is much more patient than I am to explain it once again for speedy, though I doubt it will do any good to the indoctrinated, too punch drunk on their own kool-aid, so much so that they claim others can't see the forest for the trees! Good spin on speedy's part though, I can't help but wonder if he actually believes what he types? LOL
Astro
Astro
03-10-2023, 05:26 PM
#41
03-11-2023, 04:38 AM
#42
Yes yes, of course Frank is right. There's nothing in the US code or FAR's that (to my knowledge) even mention the word insurance.
But from a practical standpoint, if you want to have an event at somewhere other than a club's fixed site, or you want to establish a new fixed site or new club the first thing out of the controlling authority or land owners mouth is "insurance?"
Nobody ever claimed you can't find other insurance. What has been established is that its difficult to get the coverage AMA offers, at the price we pay because of the bulk rate we get. Also, from a land owner or from someone's perspective that is verifying insurance its easy to prove, if you have a non-expired AMA card you're insured. That's it. We all have heard of the trick where someone pays the first payment of xyz insurance, gets a card, then never makes the 2nd payment so while they may have "proof of insurance" they could indeed be operating with no coverage, it happens all the time with car insurance which is why car insurance companies started reporting to DMV's, now if my insurance lapses I risk getting my DL suspended unless I can show I have current insurance from another source.
But from a practical standpoint, if you want to have an event at somewhere other than a club's fixed site, or you want to establish a new fixed site or new club the first thing out of the controlling authority or land owners mouth is "insurance?"
Nobody ever claimed you can't find other insurance. What has been established is that its difficult to get the coverage AMA offers, at the price we pay because of the bulk rate we get. Also, from a land owner or from someone's perspective that is verifying insurance its easy to prove, if you have a non-expired AMA card you're insured. That's it. We all have heard of the trick where someone pays the first payment of xyz insurance, gets a card, then never makes the 2nd payment so while they may have "proof of insurance" they could indeed be operating with no coverage, it happens all the time with car insurance which is why car insurance companies started reporting to DMV's, now if my insurance lapses I risk getting my DL suspended unless I can show I have current insurance from another source.
03-11-2023, 06:19 AM
#43
My point is that some present it as an absolute truth that every land owner requires insurance. What is accurate is to say that some do, but some do not.
03-11-2023, 07:05 AM
#45
How feeble minded and delusional it is to claim that somehow a signature on an AMA form carries more obligation to comply than force of law! The fallacy of this is easily demonstrated by our intrepetid member in these pages, a five-digit AMA noble, who readily admits he violates 400 AGL in class G despite his signature as Cameron notes above. And what's worse? Our esteemed EC member says NOTHING when a member admits violating the law and violating the Cameron's sacred signature oath.
Talk about undermining the organization's only talking point, albeit a weak one, but undermining it none the less.
Last edited by franklin_m; 03-11-2023 at 07:29 AM.
03-11-2023, 07:27 AM
#46
I find it entertaining that a known liar ( SterlingD ) feels he is entitled to point fingers and is too arrogant to realize that flying over 400’ a few seconds at a time is far safer then flying at an uncontrolled environment such as “ the schoolyard down the street from his house “.
03-11-2023, 07:36 AM
#47
So the most beloved organization's main justification for membership as opposed to simply following the code is that somehow a signature promise to AMA carries more weight. And here we have someone who's already rationalizing their failure to abide by that oath by saying the violations are only a "few seconds."
I will note that the last person to get a serious injury while flying in a park was the vice president of an AMA club.
I will note that the last person to get a serious injury while flying in a park was the vice president of an AMA club.
03-11-2023, 07:53 AM
#48
And as usual the liar leaves out details. This taken from a news article.
The park, on Shore Parkway near Bay 44th Street, is a sanctioned flying field by the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) and popular spot for model flyer aficionados.
Shows that flying in too close can be a safety issue as well. Appears he was also flying alone.
I’m curious as to how you know for certain that this was the last serious injury? Or is it the last one that made the news?
The park, on Shore Parkway near Bay 44th Street, is a sanctioned flying field by the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) and popular spot for model flyer aficionados.
Shows that flying in too close can be a safety issue as well. Appears he was also flying alone.
I’m curious as to how you know for certain that this was the last serious injury? Or is it the last one that made the news?
03-11-2023, 08:11 AM
#49
And as usual the liar leaves out details. This taken from a news article.
The park, on Shore Parkway near Bay 44th Street, is a sanctioned flying field by the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) and popular spot for model flyer aficionados.
Shows that flying in too close can be a safety issue as well. Appears he was also flying alone.
I’m curious as to how you know for certain that this was the last serious injury? Or is it the last one that made the news?
The park, on Shore Parkway near Bay 44th Street, is a sanctioned flying field by the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) and popular spot for model flyer aficionados.
Shows that flying in too close can be a safety issue as well. Appears he was also flying alone.
I’m curious as to how you know for certain that this was the last serious injury? Or is it the last one that made the news?
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3809731
03-11-2023, 08:23 AM
#50
Yes. And last time I checked, the site in Tailand was not an AMA-sanctioned flying site, did not have a safety line, and was not an AMA sanctioned event.
The pilot being an AMA member was immaterial. That's like saying an airline pilot who commits a regulatory violation flying through Europe thinks they should get away with it because they are a member of ALPA.
R_Strowe
The pilot being an AMA member was immaterial. That's like saying an airline pilot who commits a regulatory violation flying through Europe thinks they should get away with it because they are a member of ALPA.
R_Strowe
